The evolving Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) landscape and its impact on industry with Meaghan Hembree Attorney at Holland and Knight

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We need to have a dedicated,
consistent educational process

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for recycling in our country.
And it shouldn't be just state

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to say it should be.
I think federally, but also

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state to state.
I was just in Paris a couple

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weeks ago and I'm in the subway
and there's these huge recycling

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pictures on the subway walls.
And it's like, it was a can and

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it had wings on the can.
It says, hey, this can doesn't

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get recycled by itself,
basically saying it takes, you

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have to actually put it in the
trash can.

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And it talks about it's the,
it's the we're trying to

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accomplish improving
sustainability and recycling and

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things like that.
Welcome to the Environmental

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Transformation Podcast, where we
bring you interviews with

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champions, sustainability

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expertise.
I'm your host, Sean Grady, and

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thanks for joining us today.
Before we jump in, make sure to

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follow us on your devices and
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Now let's get started.

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Welcome to the.
Environmental Transformation

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Podcast.
I'm your host, Sean Grady, and

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today's guest is Megan Colligan
Hembree.

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And she is a member, or actually
she's a partner of Holland

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Knight in Washington, DC, where
she counsels Fortune 500

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companies and global brands on
chemical risk, environmental

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compliance and high stakes
disputes and transactions.

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Her focus is strategic, helping
clients manage complex liability

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across the life cycle of
chemicals from product

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development and disposal and
turn regulatory complexity into

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competitive advantage.
Megan, welcome to the show.

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I've watched you on some of your
posts on LinkedIn and it piqued

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my interest 'cause you were
speaking on EPR a couple times

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and I thought, you know what,
let's bring the expert in

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illegal expert get her
perspective on this.

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So welcome to the show.
Sean, it's great to be here with

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you today.
Yeah, thanks.

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Talk a little bit about let's
give a definition for some of

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the listeners who may not be
that familiar with EPR.

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Maybe you can just kind of give
a high level summary of what is

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it and how does it affect, how
does it affect the industry and

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maybe people personally.
I think that's a great place to

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start because it doesn't exactly
provide a clear vision of what

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it's intending in its name.
But if you look at the basic

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words, the first one is
extended.

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So they're in essence laws that
are designed to extend

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responsibility related to the
end of life management for

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product disposal and recycling
to the parties that are

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producing the plastic as a
component of their product and

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therefore their, you know, their
method of transferring their

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product to customers.
So historically, it's very

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important to start here.
Waste is managed at the local

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level generally, so every
municipality has a different way

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of doing things.
There are general obligations

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under federal law for how
landfills are managed and

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permitted and how recycling
infrastructure generally exists,

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and all of that implementation
occurs at the state and local

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level.
And in 2018, China stopped

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accepting waste from other
countries.

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At that moment in time, we saw
from a policy perspective a

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significant moment, a window of
opportunity for issues related

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to the plastics and waste
streams in America to take full

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center screen.
And right around that time

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period, U.S. policy makers and
states started asking themselves

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what are we going to do?
How are we going to handle this?

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At the same time, in Europe, at
almost the exact moment in time,

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we had the EU, for example,
developing their first set of

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plastic bands for single use
products.

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This is all around the same time
where they started shifting

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plastic straws to paper straws
in the United States in multiple

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jurisdictions, as well as
shifting plastic bag

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requirements and adding plastic
bag fees.

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And so this 2018 time period was
really important for shaping the

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way the next seven years have
gone with plastics and the focus

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of plastics and everyone trying
to figure out what to do.

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Yeah, it has been a an
evolution, so to speak, of

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watching the industry figure out
how to handle this.

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You mentioned the the China
sword type act where they were

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not accepting any plastic from
anywhere, any country they

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really put a bond on.
A lot of companies are in the

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countries in general.
There was a period of time where

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you could recycle plastic and
you were getting some money for

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it.
And then all of a sudden, nobody

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could recycle any plastic
because no one was buying it.

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And that was a big, a big change
in the industry, as I recall.

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Yeah.
So now, extended producer

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responsibility.
It's really not a new thing,

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though, is it?
When you link, look back and I

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can remember way back when I was
a young child, you want to go

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buy Coke bottles of Coke or
Pepsi or whatever, and you put

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down a deposit for some of those
bottles so you could get that

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back 'cause they wanted those
bottles to recycle and reuse.

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And it's the same type of
concept here to the extent to

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where consumers are going to pay
a little extra because there's

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going to be this extended
responsibility of the

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manufacturer to take back those
products and do something with

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it.
Maybe you can.

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Let's talk a little bit about
how are companies preparing to

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comply with EPR regulations
across different regions in the

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industry.
We just talked about a few, but

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plastics might be one that we
might be more familiar with.

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And how is that looking and
shaping up right now for us as

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consumers?
Let's just say we started our

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conversation before we were
recording about using the word

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adventure.
IA lot of companies are are

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sitting down and trying to
strategize what they're going to

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do.
This overlaps across multiple

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avenues within a company's
operations.

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We've been assisting smaller
companies as well as some of the

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largest brands in the world with
this.

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And every single company has a
different set of resources and a

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different set of structures with
a company that really guide the

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way they're able to focus and
pay attention to this.

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But almost in every instance
we're talking to the individual

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that's managing, I'll say
operations and or

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sustainability.
Sometimes those are two distinct

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people, COO and sometimes
they're the chief sustainability

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officer.
We're generally also meeting

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with the legal department and
frequently we're interacting

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with folks within the ESG
setting at the same time and

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packaging engineers.
We're also speaking with people

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within the revenue divisions of
companies.

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So sometimes the CFO, sometimes
it's their sales department, but

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every single one of those
individuals or roles becomes a

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critical player and figuring out
how is a company going to assess

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their packaging use for
reporting obligations that

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happen to be distinct in the
several states in which these

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laws have been enacted.
As well as you mentioned, this

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has been happening in other
places.

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So there are global EPR
requirements in Canada, for

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example, is we're working with a
lot of companies that are

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selling their products into
Canada and have obligations

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there across the globe.
Yeah, that's going to be a

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pretty complex situation for a
global company that has products

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that go everywhere.
And at this day and age, any

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company could technically be
global if they got a product

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that they can sell and ship.
It sounds like this is going to

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be a consideration for a lot of
firms to to evaluate when

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they're making decisions on
packaging their products, how

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they create I guess the return
loop so to speak of that

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product.
And maybe you can talk about

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what that looks like for some of
the discussions you've been

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having with companies.
What has been the biggest

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challenge in from an operational
perspective and maybe a

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financial perspective of where
companies implementing EPR

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programs?
I'll start with the supply chain

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again.
Every company is a different

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size and a different scale and
different scope, but we're

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always coming back to where is
this packaging material being

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manufactured?
Is it in the US?

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Is it abroad?
Is there a contract with the

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manufacturer in which the brand
remains responsible for the

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packaging liability?
Does the manufacturer take on

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any of that liability once?
Is it imported?

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Who is the importer of record?
Who's the distributor of record?

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And all of those questions
matter.

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Is anyone licensing the brand?
In some instances it's possible

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that the licensee could be the
company required to report.

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A lot of the brands that we are
working with are taking this

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very seriously, understanding
that this generally falls on

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their lap to understand or
distributors whether online

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retail or in person retail
distribution.

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Those companies are assisting by
providing the data that they

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have.
But a lot of it is really trying

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to understand exactly where all
the packaging is going, which

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states is it even going into and
how do we make sure that the

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party that has the
responsibility under the

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specific state law is indeed
registering for these programs

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and reporting under these
programs.

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The complexities continue on,
but I would say that's one of

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the very first.
Questions.

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Yeah, great.
Thinking about it from a

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strategic perspective, you
mentioned a few scenarios there,

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but I'd imagine if you're a
manufacturer, if you could write

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into your contracts for some of
these packaging companies that

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they're that you're buying the
material from that they're going

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to be responsible.
That's probably one way to kind

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of offset or get around some of
this type of responsibility.

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Is that correct?
So that's a really great point

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and why I was saying that's just
the beginning, right, Because

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then OK, so what's next now
we're looking at the contracts

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now we're looking at the
licensing agreements now.

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And so it just continues in that
you are chasing your supply

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chain to understand it while
also shirring up for future

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years and future contracts.
A lot of the agreements in the

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packaging world are annual and
for also then thinking about

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strategic messaging for partners
within your supply chain and

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all.
And these companies, many of

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their these relationships are
critical.

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It's not in anyone's interest
for these conversations to be

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adverse.
So we're also seeing business

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wide decisions and business wide
conversations where companies

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are sitting down and at the
table together to determine how

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do we best do this as partners?
Why do we do this as partners?

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Because people don't like to
talk to me that frequently.

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Oh, I don't know.
Why not?

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Come on.
Hey, so you're in the weeds, so

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to speak with a lot of companies
now trying to navigate these

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requirements and and advising
them, which is great.

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But how is EPR influencing
product and the package design

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decisions within the industry,
within the electronics, consumer

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goods, automotive and there's a
lot there in this area and comes

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to mind is like how can
companies be more thoughtful

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about creating more of a
circular economy related product

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that you know is going to be
used for packaging that's easily

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recycled?
It's not complicated, simple.

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What are you seeing in that
space where companies are really

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investing in a little more
thought in that?

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Before these EPR laws started
taking US operations by storm,

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we saw so many companies being
caught leaders around how they

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could impact sustainability
generally.

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I want to preface with EPR being
a, let's say, a tool in the

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toolbox of moving towards the
circular economy.

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But there are so many other
areas of law regulation and also

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just consumer management and
consumer relationship and trust

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and reputation building that are
critical right now.

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There's also greenwashing risks
in terms of like how we're how

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companies are communicating what
they're doing to their their

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customers.
So again, I start there because

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EPR is just a piece of the
puzzle and brands are many

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brands are stepping into
leadership roles right now and

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evaluating that exact question.
Some of them are designing new

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packaging for their products and
you can see what when you're out

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of the store.
There's some, I recently saw a

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very well known brand that
indicated on their bottle that

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they had reduced the amount of
packaging from the last bottle

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that you had seen them using by
a certain percentage.

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And companies are proud of this.
They're proud of the way they're

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changing their materials
management.

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00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,200
They're, they're looking at
their climate reporting

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requirements and saying, OK, in
addition to reducing the amount

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00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,040
of materials we're using for
this packaging, can we transport

235
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,280
it in a different way?
There's studies out there that

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show or that if you reduce the
weight of packaging, it reduces

237
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,200
the amount of GSG emissions.
So all of these things are

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interconnected and companies are
building out sustainability

239
00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,000
committees that are thinking
really critically about all of

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00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,960
these moving pieces.
Then there's, of course, the,

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00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,000
like you'd mentioned, the milk
bottles, Coke bottles.

242
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,680
We're also seeing the resurgence
of bottle bills.

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00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,000
And in some states, if a company
is participating in a bottle

244
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,360
bill, then they're exempt from
EPR because why would you have

245
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,520
to pay into something if those
bottles are being returned?

246
00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:02,360
And actually the California EPR
law related to textiles that'll

247
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,920
be coming into effect, I think
it's in 2026, actually

248
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,360
contemplates full circular
economy such that our clothes

249
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,000
are going back, they're going
back into the system, nothing

250
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,320
goes into landfill.
Yeah.

251
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,720
When I think about EPR, the
challenge that it seems to be

252
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,240
most companies would struggle
with is how do you validate that

253
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,160
you're actually getting a
significant percentage of EPR

254
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,160
return, you know, taking place,
Especially if you say you get a

255
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,640
lot of small products, a lot of
small packages.

256
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,440
In my mind, I go it's ATV or
it's a washer and dryer.

257
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,040
You're going to be able to track
that one a little easier I would

258
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,480
imagine, 'cause they're big
products, but little things.

259
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:51,280
How is the data collection side
of this for reporting actually

260
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,360
going to get done in a way that
companies could actually with a

261
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:59,960
straight face say we did 60% EPR
return on our products this

262
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,280
year?
Like how does that even happen?

263
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,760
I'll tell you this, I'm working
with some pretty brilliant

264
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,440
people that have complex
calculations and they're

265
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,040
weighing their materials and
they're tracking it line by

266
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,520
line.
And once there is data, it can

267
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,000
be analyzed.
I'll say that.

268
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,840
But if the product doesn't come
back to their own say facility,

269
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,280
we talk about say this whole,
you've got individual EPR

270
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,080
company, company where they
would set up the whole return

271
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,040
cycle process.
And then you got this collective

272
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,480
type approach too, right, where
couple companies bind together

273
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,760
and they create this type of
return process.

274
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,320
Have you started to work with
companies that are looking into

275
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,400
that direction and doing a more
of a partnership or they're

276
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,680
creating a group or a team
effort here to create a return

277
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,720
process so that the data can be
tracked, they can validate what

278
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,400
happens?
I'm just curious because I think

279
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,920
this is the one of the biggest
obstacles, the struggle for

280
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:07,800
companies with this.
There are multiple different EPR

281
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:17,000
regimes and the packaging regime
does not currently focus on this

282
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,839
return process.
OK.

283
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:25,520
The packaging side is really
focused on these one time

284
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:32,440
materials are adding a
protective layer to a box that

285
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,520
was a plastic film that gets
thrown out.

286
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,960
Or I'm sure you buy something
for a friend and they open the

287
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:43,000
box and there's some sort of
cream in there and then there's

288
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,360
some little pretty paper and
it's really pretty and you're

289
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:48,800
like, oh, and you take out the
little papers, but there's

290
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,680
nothing really you can do with
that paper again.

291
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,880
So a lot of these packaging
related APR laws are designed to

292
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:02,600
assess how our recycling
infrastructure and landfill

293
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:10,640
infrastructure is designed and
to be able to figure out ways to

294
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,800
recycle or manage those
materials better, noting that

295
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,560
they're one time likely or
building up recycling

296
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,720
infrastructure.
So back to the core of why these

297
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,000
laws are here, at least the
packaging related ones.

298
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,920
We could talk about other CPR
concepts because this goes ways

299
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,040
bigger than that into creating
the circular economy you're

300
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:38,320
talking about with respect to
packaging behind all state laws.

301
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,920
If you get to the core of them,
they're trying to assess what

302
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,200
are the needs for our
infrastructure to improve, to be

303
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,160
able to recycle and to keep
things going back in into the

304
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,600
system.
And so these fees that are

305
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:58,320
getting assessed are basically
designed to, I should say, they

306
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,480
are supposed to be signed to
understand what a specific state

307
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,760
needs to address that particular
material.

308
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:12,440
And at its core, if we think
about it in really simple terms,

309
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,480
you know it, I'm just using a
random material.

310
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,960
If it's determined that 80% of
the state's recycling facilities

311
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:29,680
can't handle this particular
type of material, then the goal

312
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:35,160
would be that these fees are
designed to collect more money

313
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:40,040
for those types of materials.
So then that money can then go

314
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:44,040
into the state and into the
local municipalities to build

315
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:49,040
their capacity to handle it.
And that's really where these

316
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,440
fees are designed to go.
There's a lot of there's a lot

317
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,320
of questions about what will
happen once the skis are

318
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,600
collected and if it'll really
work, but that's at the floor of

319
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,360
the packaging related APR.
And that that kind of makes

320
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:05,200
sense because to to kind of
really manage the whole life

321
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,480
cycle of a small package that
would be just too onerous.

322
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,640
I could imagine.
I like the concept of creating

323
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,040
the packaging to be more
sustainably I guess more

324
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,560
recyclable essentially and less
make it strip the thing down to

325
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,440
its bare bones.
So it's simple, it's easy.

326
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,880
It's it's going to have AI.
Guess it's the best way to

327
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,560
recycle the product when when it
does get recycled, help

328
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,120
companies get there because
yeah, we don't need a lot of

329
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,560
single use plastics floating
around just because you keep

330
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,880
adding more wrappers or extra
material to a product.

331
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,760
It's a significant challenge for
companies because they'll create

332
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,040
products and they'll create
packaging that is technically

333
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:51,440
recyclable.
But then if the state doesn't

334
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,000
have the appropriate
infrastructure, there have been

335
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,960
lawsuits where if somebody says
my material is recyclable, but

336
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,760
then it's a link, there's a
state that actually can't

337
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,640
recycle it.
Then they should get an

338
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,680
exemption.
Instead, they're getting sued

339
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,600
for making the claim that their
material is recyclable.

340
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,360
It can't actually be recycled.
So there's a there's a lot of

341
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:17,520
moving pieces and why that's why
it also really matters for

342
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:18,680
companies.
Even though it can be

343
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:24,120
frustrating upfront, I think to
have these new fees, I think the

344
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:29,240
vision is ultimately that it
creates a system that will be

345
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,840
that will minimize those
greenwashing risks, will

346
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,240
increase the recyclability.
But we've got a gap to fill, and

347
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,280
states are using EPR as one of
their tools to try to close that

348
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,960
gap.
There's a lot of questions about

349
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,920
whether or not it's the right
solution.

350
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,160
Yeah, I think some of the easier
ones you could think of for EPR

351
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,680
would be like say tires, you buy
tires, you go get a new tire and

352
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,960
that tire goes to back to the
manufacturer's system.

353
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,320
That'd be a pretty, I think it's
simpler, more an easier way to

354
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,040
to have a closed loop type EPR.
But I'm sure there's other

355
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,040
products but.
Hello ET Nation, I want to thank

356
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,560
you for listening to the
podcast.

357
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If you're enjoying the
interviews we bring you,

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consider supporting the program
by visiting my website at

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Proceeds will go towards helping
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I like the packaging scenario.

403
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:51,680
I'm sure there's some challenges
there.

404
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,520
And I could imagine for the
company who makes a product and

405
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,200
it's recyclable in say New York.
And then over there in New

406
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,560
Jersey, it's not because they
don't have the infrastructure

407
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:02,640
over there, but that's pretty
close.

408
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:03,920
They could ship it to New York
pretty close.

409
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,440
But anyways, if they make the
one package and then it's

410
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,360
doesn't meet every state's
requirements.

411
00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:11,560
So that that does sound like a
pretty challenging prospect.

412
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,760
And I, I love that we're talking
about more than packaging

413
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:22,640
because there have been higher
EPR laws, OK?

414
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,200
Connecticut passed one in 2023.
Yeah.

415
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,840
New York State introduced a bill
mandating tire collection.

416
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,200
And so there's beyond packaging
many other industries, there's

417
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,760
long standing battery EPR.
Oh yeah.

418
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,120
It's out there.
There's a lot going on in the

419
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:44,360
space.
What's your thoughts here?

420
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:48,240
How might EPR regulations for
innovation and material science,

421
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,960
recycling technologies and
sustainable product development?

422
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,200
And it seems to me this whole
EPR initiative really going to

423
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,840
initiate the advancement of all
these new circular economy

424
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,760
technologies and things.
I would think it just.

425
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,720
Oh, and absolutely, it's already
happening.

426
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:09,360
There's like in tandem of the
with these laws are multiple

427
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,960
packaging engineers and
scientists that are working

428
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,880
their tail off to figure out how
they can make internal changes

429
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,720
outside of the law to make their
products have less of an impact

430
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,480
on the environment.
So really, I think consumers

431
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,000
have shown companies that this
is a priority to them and

432
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,240
companies respond to laws, but
they really do respond to their

433
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,560
consumers.
All right.

434
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,160
So there's amazing steps being
taken.

435
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,240
I also think for the companies
that don't have the

436
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,320
infrastructure, like the larger
sustainability teams, the

437
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:49,560
packaging engineers, they're, I
believe, more likely to be

438
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,440
financially impacted by this
because they're just smaller in

439
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,160
general.
And this is a whole new

440
00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:00,200
compliance requirements on them
that they likely didn't plan

441
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:06,080
for, which I think could trigger
them to say, all right, rather

442
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:11,000
than deal with this, let's just
change our packaging that we

443
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,160
have.
We don't have the overhead to

444
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,720
even make a room for the annual
fees for.

445
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,240
We've got to figure this out.
I So, yeah, there are some

446
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,920
exemptions for certain
businesses, but in some

447
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,120
instances you're like, OK, does
that what happens if all 50

448
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:33,640
states have one of these laws
and this is how much money

449
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,120
they're charging?
But we haven't seen that just

450
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:39,840
yet.
But it's there's a lot of talk

451
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:45,200
about whether this is one of
those moments where a federal

452
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,000
solution is the right approach.
Yeah, I was just going to go

453
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,280
there.
I was like, OK, do we have

454
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,840
federal DPR laws across all 50
states that have to be adhered

455
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,120
to or is it really a state by
state approach right now?

456
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,200
And man, that's a whole
interesting prospect in the

457
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,360
census, all the environmental
regulations that we're already

458
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:10,200
dealing with that you've got
federal and then you got to

459
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,840
understand the nuances of the
state laws associated with the

460
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,960
federal.
And that's fine, I guess for the

461
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,920
most part.
But is that is it mostly being

462
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,160
led by state at this point?
Yeah, absolutely.

463
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,480
Although there's been a lot of
legislative activity related to

464
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,680
this, related to packaging,
related to recycling, relating

465
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,720
to plastic pollution.
At one point in time, I had a

466
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,400
list of every single legislative
activity that's gone forward in

467
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,680
the last eight years or so.
But yeah, I think there there's

468
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,160
a law called the Break Free from
Plastic Pollution Act that I

469
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,640
believe has an EPR concept
related to beverage containers

470
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,520
and some plastic products.
We've in the last

471
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,880
administration, there was a
letter that went out to, I

472
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,000
believe it was to most agencies.
But in essence the core of

473
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,880
letter was basically, hey, when
there's federal procurement

474
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,800
involved, we don't want to use
single use plastics.

475
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,840
There was there were some Senate
hearings last March.

476
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,200
The FTC has been evaluating the
Green Guides for multiple years.

477
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,000
So I think and there have been
multiple recycling

478
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:26,520
infrastructure bills, the issue
and what makes this a very

479
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,240
interesting place to work as an
attorney as there's so many

480
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,640
cross jurisdictional issues
between funking between

481
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,040
implementation of the actual
infrastructure, between

482
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,040
enforcement.
So what's the right way to do

483
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,280
this?
I think we can step back at this

484
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,400
moment in time already with
lessons learned from the roll

485
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,800
out of Oregon's, Colorado's
registration and reporting

486
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,520
requirements with California's
and Minnesota's next in line to

487
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,960
see what would the benefits be
if there was something at a

488
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,920
federal level.
Some of the benefits to having

489
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,880
this at the state level is it's
forcing the process or whenever

490
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:14,120
you have a federal law like
this, it would take immense

491
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:21,240
studies, data collection, and to
get it right to really create

492
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,800
something that was equitable and
effective.

493
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,480
So I do think that at some point
in time we'll hit a tipping

494
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,720
point within the number of
states that have enacted EPR

495
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,760
laws where they'll be more and
more pressure at the federal

496
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,880
level for some sort of
synthesizing to occur.

497
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,360
Will it get into the nitty
gritty of the day-to-day?

498
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,840
I don't know.
Will it create some minimum

499
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,360
recycling standards?
I worked on some legislation

500
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,000
that proposed that that was
issued last fall, that some

501
00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:00,160
recycling standards would be
very helpful to create, let's

502
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:06,200
call like the foundational web
that then all other waste

503
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,000
management and recycling issues
could be managed through.

504
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,040
So I don't know, We'll see if
there's a laughing downhill.

505
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,200
I when I think about a
nationwide approach to some of

506
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,280
this, it seems that there is
probably some low hanging fruit

507
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,400
type products that are no
brainers.

508
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,520
That would be like, yeah, and we
just mentioned tires.

509
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,000
Everybody has that problem in
every single state.

510
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,960
Why wouldn't that be an easy one
to say?

511
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,120
You know what, there's one.
How about white goods?

512
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,560
Every refrigerator, washer and
dryer, anything like like that.

513
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:48,360
All some like also electronics.
Those would be, to my mind, the

514
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:55,000
easiest ones to do a nationwide
EPR where companies have to put

515
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,840
together some more sophisticated
infrastructure.

516
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,280
Not that it's not already there
because there's a lot going on

517
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,120
in the space, but there needs to
be more, right?

518
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,560
It'd be it'd be more collection
systems and locations, but to me

519
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,600
that would be easy from a
nationwide perspective.

520
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,440
The rest of the packaging I
think would be a little more

521
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,160
probably state by state, but
those would be a big ones.

522
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,520
I don't know how many states
already have tire EPR laws have

523
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:29,480
come ahead, but I'm pretty sure
that there are already OK.

524
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,720
If I were to pick up material to
start with, it would be

525
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:38,400
electronics because I'm aware of
at least 25 states that have

526
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,440
electronic, you know, CPR
related laws.

527
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,200
So there's already
infrastructure companies are

528
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,560
already supposed to be doing
this.

529
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:54,160
So why not turn create something
that again creates the minimum

530
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,240
standards.
And that's one of the

531
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,040
interesting things about RECRA,
the Resource Conservation and

532
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:05,000
Recovery Act, which is real.
Our current cradle to grave law

533
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:12,320
in 1976 states are still
generally taking over a majority

534
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:18,880
of the implementation of Rick
Rickrit has been amended, I

535
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,640
think it four times. 1986, you
got a few?

536
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:28,280
Yeah, there's a few there.
Have been more regulation, more

537
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,440
revisions to the regulations,
but.

538
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,960
I think hasn't changed that
dramatically from its initial

539
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:41,240
implementation, so.
One of my thoughts here is let's

540
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,840
go a little bit bigger than EPR
Ricro, in my opinion, needs to

541
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,560
be amended, needs to be rehauled
because again, if we want to

542
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,840
create a system that is circular
in the United States, when our

543
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,400
waste system, our waste lot, and
I don't know, in the preamble it

544
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,400
says of I'm actually going to
say what the preamble says.

545
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,920
What I will say is that in every
Ricker law class, I can say for

546
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,040
sure because I would, I got to
take my Ricker class with

547
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,840
Jeffrey Miller who helped write
the law at Peace Law school.

548
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,280
The first thing anyone learns
about Ricker is that it's

549
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:21,040
cradle, the grief it's getting
to end, it's completion

550
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,120
generation through disposal.
So if we don't want that

551
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,280
disposal piece to be the main
construct in the way we think

552
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,760
about it.
Amend that component of the

553
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:32,840
record.
I mean everything else is

554
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,960
regulatory compliance with
hazardous waste characteristic

555
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,840
compliance of the reporting, but
make more of the emphasis on the

556
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,520
the recycling infrastructure
closed loop type scenarios.

557
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,280
That's good.
There's extensive recycling

558
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,760
related exemptions I think are
just the start.

559
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,880
Universal waste is great.
You've got the whole, you've got

560
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,120
everything and just not
everything, but you have a lot

561
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,960
in the universal waste rules
that are everyday common main

562
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,040
products that we all use,
electronics, batteries, all

563
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,080
kinds of paints, sometimes in
certain states.

564
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,960
There's those all kinds of
aspects of universal waste and

565
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,920
there is infrastructure being
built and there are major

566
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,880
companies doing it.
Like I, I'm a very familiar with

567
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,000
several lamp recycling, the
electronic recycling, obviously

568
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,240
solvent recycling.
There's a lot of their plastic

569
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,840
there's, it's all there
cardboard, there's, it's, it's

570
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,840
there.
Maybe there's got to be a better

571
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:34,680
way of tracking how those
manufacturers are, how much

572
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,120
they're producing and then
somehow figuring out how much is

573
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,480
going to get returned.
I think there is that that once

574
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,920
it leaves the play their
manufacturing site, how do they

575
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,000
track the recyclability of that
product at some point I.

576
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,680
I think well coming back to one
of the first things that we were

577
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,880
talking about which is like the
supply chain from the.

578
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,720
So what has made a Recra an
effective system for a long time

579
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:02,080
is that it in required has
required tracking is created a

580
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,640
process that then can be
implemented.

581
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,080
A lot of what we do is it in the
hazardous waste industry and

582
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:15,320
that's really one of my main
focus areas is we're tracking

583
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,400
how it moves through trucking,
We're tracking where it was

584
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,840
made, what facility and.
When it was generated, how long

585
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,760
it's been on site?
And then our circle lawsuits

586
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,360
related to landfilling end up
looking at those hazardous waste

587
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,800
manifests.
OK, this is, these are the

588
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,400
parties that are responsible
because they drop it off here,

589
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,120
they moved it here.
The whole system is built for

590
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:47,800
the way we managed materials,
but we haven't paused to create

591
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,280
that type of more systematic
recycling infrastructure and

592
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,400
tracking process.
There's again extensive

593
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,320
exemptions, but they're
complicated.

594
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,040
We've got certain materials that
are exempt from the definition

595
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,920
of solid waste altogether.
Then we have other materials

596
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,920
that are exempt from the
definition of hazardous waste if

597
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:14,960
they're managed a certain way.
And anyway, so I think there

598
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,240
could be a simplification of
that whole.

599
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:23,800
It'll be 1 area of the federal
regulations that could help

600
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,320
reduce or improve the an EPR
type circular economy component

601
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:31,360
for sure.
I still feel like we're missing

602
00:37:31,720 --> 00:37:33,920
the products that are
manufactured, that are shipped

603
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,600
out to consumers that they won't
ever be able to manage

604
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,720
themselves, the company
themselves technically again,

605
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,760
they're just going to hope for
the best that society recycles

606
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,440
the products better, more
effectively.

607
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,400
And I think that's, I think
there's the big disconnect or at

608
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,760
least the challenge for EPR in a
lot of areas.

609
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,400
Plus we come up with some
amazing technology that can sort

610
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:04,160
materials that are going into
all of these facilities that can

611
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,960
better weigh and manage all of
the materials.

612
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,760
I I think they're.
You're spot on.

613
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,560
And there are new technologies
coming online.

614
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,960
There are with AI and visual
recognition and processing and

615
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,880
there is some huge improvements
that are being made in that

616
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,920
area.
They are costly to get them

617
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,680
implemented at a lot of these
locations.

618
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,520
So it's going to take time, I
think before a lot of these

619
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,720
companies are really in a
position to where I guess the

620
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,080
technology and the equipment
becomes very affordable and

621
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,400
standardized.
But it's going to be a, it's

622
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,760
going to take some time.
But I think that there's good

623
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,000
signs that's already really
available now, but not at the

624
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,600
scale that needs to be.
Agree, And the other component

625
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,120
besides.
OK, obviously.

626
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,800
Can someone let me rewrite
Ricker one day?

627
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,720
I'd love to work on it.
Yeah, cut to my Bork dream.

628
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,680
I'll be honest with you, but OK.
It does need to know it needs an

629
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:05,720
overhaul.
I'm with you.

630
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:08,320
It's, it's a challenge.
There's some of the regulation

631
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,880
or the requirements, just you
scratch your head and so come

632
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,120
on, really.
But they were written this in

633
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,400
76.
That's a different world.

634
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,920
And this was their first attempt
at a major regulation that was

635
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,880
They were tired of seeing
companies just dump their stuff

636
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,360
in the back 40 like they did a
Love canal.

637
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,280
That's why.
I think it's an amazing law,

638
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,600
I'll say that.
I also think critical to this

639
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,160
discussion is the creation of
markets.

640
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,800
Yeah.
How do we bring all of this

641
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,040
online?
Again, EPR is a tool.

642
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,880
It creates a fee structure
that'll put more money into the

643
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,200
state's hands to work on and
perhaps buy some of that

644
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,000
infrastructure and some of that
technology.

645
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,480
You're talking about a dream
world.

646
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:59,800
Now, once that clean material is
created, what And what once we

647
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,560
actually create it and we keep
it out of landfills, what

648
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,040
happens next?
Who's going to take that

649
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,440
material?
Who's going to clean it?

650
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,760
Who's going to process it?
And then there's many disputes

651
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,800
about what's the proper way of
handling and processing

652
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,680
recyclable material to have a
minimal environmental impact.

653
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,720
So.
I think that's another critical

654
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:24,800
component of the discussion is
and it's another think about

655
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:26,920
America as a free market
society.

656
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:33,200
If we create a market for it,
it's very for the waste to be

657
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,760
handled.
Like, for example, China was a

658
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,560
market, they made money.
Yeah, totally.

659
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,000
They totally made money on it
and they were just getting

660
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,920
inundated by the world basically
because they were just kept

661
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,320
sending stuff to them.
The.

662
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,760
Biggest issue in I would say,
OK, I keep saying the biggest

663
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:55,320
issue, one of the biggest issues
of in of all of this is also the

664
00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:01,600
contamination of materials.
The the complexity of handling

665
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,000
material waste streams even at
your home, right?

666
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,080
Some foods I'm thinking peanut
butter, right?

667
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,760
Like how hard is it to get your
peanut butter consumer gleaning

668
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,800
WAP that you could actually be
recyclable?

669
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,560
Yeah, there's that.
And you're right.

670
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,840
Now I'm aware of a few firms,
Republics one, they just opened

671
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,200
up a blue polymer, couple blue
polymer facilities, one in

672
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,440
Indianapolis where I reside, and
they've got one in Phoenix and I

673
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:27,440
think they just opened a new
one.

674
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,200
I'm not sure where, but they
heard that they've come up with

675
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,240
a way to actually clean and
process some of the plastic that

676
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:37,240
is dirty that's so that they can
effectively clean it, process

677
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:39,840
it, and then make it a product
for resale in the market.

678
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,400
And that's great.
So strides are being made in

679
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,160
certain areas of the business
under that and I think that's

680
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,400
real important.
I've got a big panel discussion

681
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,760
coming up in a couple weeks in
Louisville at the EHS Hazmat

682
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,640
Summit, where I'm leading a
circular economy conversation

683
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,520
with leaders from Republic,
leaders from ERI, which is

684
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,240
Electronic Recycling
International, and also with a

685
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,520
company called Pre Tread.
And Pre Tread is a company that

686
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,160
recycles tires and makes Rd.
barriers out of it.

687
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,280
The big concrete ones, you see,
instead of using that, they're

688
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,320
making them out of recycled
tires.

689
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,240
And it's a great product because
the durability of them, the

690
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:18,720
longevity of them and it's a
reused product and out to go on

691
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,280
or dig up the earth.
They can just they've already

692
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,600
done it.
So it's more sustainable.

693
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,320
And we're talking about that.
The whole circular economy,

694
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,160
infrastructure being built and
growing it and dealing with

695
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,120
these challenges of that a lot
of companies are facing either

696
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,080
with EPR or just because the
companies want to deal with it

697
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,600
because it's the right thing to
do from a sustainability

698
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,720
perspective.
Reducing carbon footprint could

699
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,920
all that good stuff, right.
So that's a lot of it.

700
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,600
When you when do you anticipate
APR compliance will increase

701
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,360
prices on consumers and how can
companies manage then offset

702
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:58,640
this impact?
Money is going to have to come

703
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,040
somewhere from somewhere, right?
So are they going to?

704
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,840
That's a business decision.
I don't know if companies will

705
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:14,760
put that on their consumers or
take the hit, but you know, most

706
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,440
companies are generally.
Passing down the cost.

707
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,360
Yeah, I'm seeking to increase
revenue.

708
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,760
But the other thing is the way I
like to think about it is this

709
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:31,240
is where consumers and companies
can show leadership in general.

710
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:37,920
It helps if it's not coming
through this EPR fee that's

711
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,840
assigned to we're going to be
assigned based on the weight of

712
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,120
packaging used by producers.
It would have to come through

713
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,560
taxes anyway if we were to work
through and enhance and increase

714
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:56,000
the infrastructure.
So I don't see a world where we

715
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:03,840
all don't have to invest in
infrastructure, all of us.

716
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,560
Yeah, yeah.
Everybody's going to have to

717
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,600
contribute to the process to
make this work.

718
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,040
I think the intent of the law
was for producers to hold that

719
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,160
back more.
But in essence, by doing that,

720
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,200
it does then say to conforms,
you know what, I'm going to

721
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:24,200
choose the companies that are
producing as little with

722
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:28,000
packaging material as possible.
Value purchasing is what I call

723
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:29,960
that.
And so then it does also

724
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,880
potentially shift consumer
decisions, which ships market

725
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,480
decisions, which ships fees and
in all of it.

726
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:45,280
So is that a better approach
than taxes and having everyone

727
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,320
pay into the states?
I don't know.

728
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,640
I think it should be a consumer
based approach in my opinion.

729
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,880
If you want to buy the products
and that you're willing to pay

730
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,560
for it, then great.
But if you don't buy those

731
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,680
products then you probably
wouldn't be fair.

732
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,840
You get to pay into it if you're
not buying that product.

733
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,760
So seems like it'd be best if
it's based on the actual

734
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,360
products you're buying because
then it's directly related to

735
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,000
the process and the consumer
product instead of just a flat

736
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,760
fee that everyone has to pay.
I don't know like at least

737
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:19,680
that's my thoughts.
I.

738
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:23,760
Think about it with a slightly
different product base and

739
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,280
chemical issue, but really
similar and connected to my

740
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,440
larger practice on just product
stewardship and chemical

741
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,400
management.
Excuse me?

742
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:40,560
When we look at the history and
the way PFOS bands have rolled

743
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,880
out, just for a second, we're
not going to go there.

744
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,120
I know it's not the purpose of
the conversation thing.

745
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,520
Wait, go for it, go for it
because unfortunately, consumers

746
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,200
are having to take the brunt of
it.

747
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,400
In many ways, it's also how
consumers are saying are

748
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,640
realizing and starting to
actually think about what

749
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,680
they're consuming, right?
They're like, Oh my goodness, I

750
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,280
didn't even think that this was
something that I should be

751
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,480
paying attention to.
And so their consumers, even

752
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,120
before the bans began, started
saying, OK, we're not going to

753
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,920
buy those non stick pans
anymore.

754
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,640
Get rid of your non stick pans,
everybody.

755
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,800
And so then what happened?
A whole and a whole new industry

756
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,600
became to be we've got a whole
new cookware industry overnight

757
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:32,760
of companies that are competing
to produce the best nonstick pan

758
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,880
that.
That's an pee Foss pan.

759
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,680
And that's a whole another
question of which pee Foss

760
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,640
compounds, but we'll just say
how do we create a nonstick

761
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,800
material that has the lowest
risk chemical exposure?

762
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,280
Sure, absolutely.
And that makes sense.

763
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,280
I think from that part or that
perspective, the consumer, I

764
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,680
think the biggest challenge
though right now is all the

765
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,960
damage that's already been done
by P5 for consumers having to

766
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,720
pay that.
They're like, we didn't even

767
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,160
deal with that stuff and they're
being exposed and have to pay

768
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,480
for water treatment that they
didn't agree to.

769
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,120
So yeah, that's the biggest
challenge I see with a lot of

770
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,320
unfairness in the process right
now, and there's that.

771
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,440
If we get back to EPR though, I
think that there's a lot that

772
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,280
can be done and I think there is
a lot of onus on individuals

773
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,200
just to be better recyclers
individually.

774
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,680
Everyone just does it a little
bit and takes the initiative to

775
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,600
recycle more and reduce their
water consumption and turn those

776
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,520
lights off and things like that.
Collectively, it'll be a big

777
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,480
impact.
And so I think that's a big

778
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,800
thing.
But how might EPR improve the

779
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,160
quality and convenience of
recycling and waste collection

780
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,320
systems for everyday consumers?
What?

781
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,680
How do you see this really
making it easier for them?

782
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,320
I'll just say to be determined
on that one, but that's another

783
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,360
component of what these, the
fees that are being collected

784
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,960
are intended to support.
Coming off of Epas.

785
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:03,800
It was either 20, sometime
between 2018 and 2020, EPA put

786
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,960
out a report or it outlined the
critical issues for recycling in

787
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,680
the United States and what was
blocking us from getting to a

788
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:18,400
recycling rate of 50%.
And the number one issue in

789
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,440
essence was besides the fact
that every state law and

790
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,240
municipal jurisdiction just does
it differently and handles it

791
00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:29,720
differently, was that it's tough
for consumers to actually know

792
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:33,400
what's right.
I've spoken to many people who

793
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,240
are like, I just moved to a new
location and and I used to be

794
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:41,200
able to recycle glass, but now I
can't recycle glass.

795
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,520
I can recycle glass, but not
from my actual home.

796
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:51,640
I have to stop 10 miles away
process into my life to do that.

797
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,640
And I want to do that, but when
am I going to do that?

798
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,320
And I know I'll get to it
eventually.

799
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,920
And all of a sudden six months
pass and you're finally like

800
00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:02,360
settled enough into your new
location to think about your

801
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:07,000
refuse.
So I think, I think that there's

802
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:11,480
more to to be, I'll just say
more to be determined here, more

803
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:15,400
to be built out.
But the goal is we move in that

804
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,320
direction.
What we can say is there's a ton

805
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,240
of data out there about
recycling in general, which

806
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:24,760
gives us the ability to say
where are the areas in the

807
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,960
country where the least
recycling is occurring.

808
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,800
And my perspective if I was in
charge would be to start there.

809
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,920
If we can build capacity in the
places where we have a recycling

810
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:43,440
rate below even 20%, education,
better infrastructure for pick

811
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,560
up and drop off which would
require more jobs, that would be

812
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,480
a great place to start.
Yeah, I think the biggest

813
00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:55,840
opportunity is the education
side of the House.

814
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,960
It's educating constantly at a
very young age.

815
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,520
School, kindergarten, even at
kindergarten started there.

816
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,760
There should be back in the day.
And we grew up as kids, at least

817
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,360
when I grew up as kids, we had
cartoons that talked about the

818
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,240
bill and how that how bills are
created in Congress.

819
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,080
And they always had a constant
education process going where

820
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,680
you were learning about
government and you were learning

821
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,600
about how to spell and read and
write and all this and stuff.

822
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:30,040
We need to have a dedicated,
consistent educational process

823
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:34,040
for recycling in our country.
And it shouldn't be just state

824
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,960
to state.
It should be, I think federally,

825
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,760
but also state to state.
I was just in Paris a couple

826
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:43,440
weeks ago and I'm in the subway
and there's these huge recycling

827
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,560
pictures on the subway walls and
it's like, it was a can and it

828
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,200
had wings on the can.
It says, hey, this can doesn't

829
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,800
get recycled by itself.
Basically saying it takes, you

830
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,800
have to actually put it in the
trash can.

831
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,320
And it talks about it's the,
it's the we're trying to

832
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,000
accomplish improving
sustainability and recycling and

833
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,560
things like that.
Or in another ad was, hey, let's

834
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,560
reuse these products.
Let's fix them up, rehab them

835
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,640
and reuse them.
And so there's all these like

836
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,080
little new, I guess advertising
and it's subliminal because

837
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,120
after a while you don't even
recognize it, but it's sitting

838
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,240
there and if you just look up,
you see it's there.

839
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:24,880
And it seems like an educational
process for EPR systems,

840
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,440
recycling process.
That's what we need to do, those

841
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,920
schemes and everything.
I don't see us doing enough of

842
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,160
that.
And, and in that federal law, I

843
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,040
mentioned to you that was one of
the critical components of the

844
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,440
recycling standards, a study
process that was built in at the

845
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,880
federal level of what can we do
to best educate and close these

846
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:49,120
gaps.
And that will take some time to

847
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,040
build out anything that becomes
systematic.

848
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,920
But I agree with you that more
education is better, but really

849
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:03,400
also comes down to general
culture.

850
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,840
Some of these laws, I think, I
don't know if they'll shift

851
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:14,600
culture immediately, but the
more that circular options are

852
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,040
available at the market level
that I think the more we'll see

853
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:24,960
cultural shifts.
So that to me comes back to what

854
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:30,880
are the barriers to making
recycling a profitable exercise?

855
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:36,360
And that's where I want to focus
personally, because that I

856
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:41,160
believe can influence cultures
in the most organic way aligned

857
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:42,960
with how our culture already
works.

858
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,680
We like a we really do
Americans, right?

859
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,920
If we how can we make trendy?
Yeah, make it trendy.

860
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:51,800
Make it.
Easy.

861
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,480
Just make it easy.
A lot of cities they don't have

862
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,680
curbside recycling, They just
have normal trash pickup, Make

863
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:02,200
it, make, add those things, add
those stream pickups.

864
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,920
So that way people are more
incentivized to do that.

865
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,080
It may take a couple dollars off
their their trash bill if

866
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,320
they're recycling more,
something you come up with,

867
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,920
something that just helps them
be more incentivized.

868
00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:19,000
I'm even having this idea right
now, which would be our top

869
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,800
stars and our rock stars and our
movie stars are very persuasive.

870
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:30,200
So if any of you are listening.
Come on, help us out.

871
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:32,880
Help us out.
Promote these recycling efforts,

872
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,240
do some documentaries and stuff
like that.

873
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:37,600
Help us figure out ways to make
this more effective.

874
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:42,120
When Beyonc�� recycles, it's
amazing, right?

875
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,720
We just, whatever.
Let's just have we want to see

876
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:47,560
Beyonc�� recycling.
There you go, Beyonc�� can

877
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,360
recycle, get all the big stars
recycling.

878
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,920
There are a lot of really great
stories to be told though.

879
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,520
A lot of big events are really
focused on recycling at the at

880
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,440
their facilities, so they can
basically have a better positive

881
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,400
impact.
I was just at a live golf outing

882
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,480
recently and the recycling and
trash receptacles are right

883
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,400
there next to each other and
it's clearly marked.

884
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,960
Everybody is dropping their
bottles and cans in the right

885
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,160
recycling section.
They're putting their trash

886
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,240
waste in the trash.
And then for of course, we've

887
00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:23,800
got the guys pulling around and
picking up the full bags and

888
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,320
replenishing the.
It was really good to see how

889
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,920
effective that some of these big
events are being managed from a

890
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,080
sustainability perspective on
the waste management.

891
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,320
It's great.
And I think those stories don't

892
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,640
get told enough, like they don't
get shared with everyday people.

893
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:43,480
Here's the impact that you
spectators had at this event,

894
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,120
right?
You contributed to recycling

895
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,320
this much.
That's those are the stories I

896
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,560
think that are not getting told.
And you can you could go to the

897
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,960
NFL and be go down the line all
these I think big leagues and

898
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,440
stuff like that are doing these
type of things, but we're not

899
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,280
talking about it enough.
We need to, yeah.

900
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:05,520
Even if there was like a or it's
half time and right before the

901
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,840
end of the game.
Hey, on your way out.

902
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,600
Don't forget to drop off your
empty container here I mean.

903
00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:17,880
I just have every event had a
like resource manager, usher who

904
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:21,000
was like designed to pump you up
or something.

905
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,320
Yeah, right.
This way to the most exciting,

906
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,800
you know, place at the stadium.
Yeah, the recycling center.

907
00:55:30,240 --> 00:55:31,760
Exactly.
No, that's great.

908
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,120
I love our conversation, Megan.
This has been exciting,

909
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,800
educational for the listeners as
well.

910
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,080
I really appreciate you coming
on the show.

911
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,880
I know we could spend probably
another 30 minutes easily

912
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,200
talking about EPR concepts and
some challenges, but I think

913
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,360
we've covered the topic pretty
well as far as some of the

914
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,560
issues that are out there.
There's more to be dived into,

915
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,880
I'm sure, and explored.
I really appreciate all the work

916
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,520
you're doing there at your firm,
just to keep up the good work at

917
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,240
Holland Knight.
Really appreciate that and thank

918
00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:02,760
you for coming on the show.
Thanks so much for having me, it

919
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,560
was a pleasure.
Thanks for listening and

920
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,880
watching the show.
If you enjoyed the show then

921
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,600
please share it with your
friends and Co workers on social

922
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,720
media and tell somebody in
person.

923
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:14,080
Thanks for being with us, ET
Nation.