Climate Optimism and Pragmatic Action with Author and Microsoft Sustainability Leader Charlie Sellars

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Being a climate optimist does
not mean putting your head in

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the sand.
It does not mean that every day

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is an optimistic day.
Sometimes you'll see a news

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headline and it'll just totally
gut you.

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But it's a more of a kind of on
on on average, on balance, you

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know, do we have what it takes
to look for the right things and

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the right trends underneath the
noise that we're not normally

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going to be exposed to?
Welcome to the Environmental

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00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,720
Transformation Podcast, where we
bring you interviews with

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industry leaders, climate
champions, sustainability

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practitioners, EHS and hazmat
professionals making an impact

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in their businesses today.
Each leader solving complex

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challenges and delivering
solutions within their areas of

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expertise.
I'm your host, Sean Grady and

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thanks for joining us today.
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Now let's get started.

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Welcome to the environmental
Transformation podcast.

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I'm your host, Sean Grady.
Today's guest is Charlie

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Sellers.
Charlie is award-winning author

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of What We Can Do, a climate
optimist guide to sustainable

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living.
He's taken a holistic,

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data-driven view across our
personal, professional, and

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political lives, and What We Can
Do aims to install readers with

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pragmatic optimism in the fight
against climate change.

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In addition to being an author,
Charlie is a Director of

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Sustainability at Microsoft,
having LED programs for both

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Windows and devices and cloud
operation teams.

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He's recognized by 100 or by 1M.
Well, maybe it's I AM 100 as one

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of the 2024 top 100 most
impactful individuals in the

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digital infrastructure industry.
Charlie also serves as the

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Governor governing body, member
of the I Masons Climate Accord

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in an industry coalition.
It's an industry coalition

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united to decarbonize the
digital infrastructure that

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underpins the next generation of
cloud and AI services.

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He he, he loves the outdoors.
He went to William College.

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He's got ABA in physics.
Well, that's a tough one.

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I can tell you.
I love my physics classes in

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college.
He's raised outside of

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Milwaukee.
He he lives in Minneapolis.

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And he wants to be closer to
snow.

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Well, he's got it.
He loves the snow.

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So he's there.
Charlie, welcome to the show.

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Yeah.
Thanks for having me, Sean.

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And indeed it is.
It is actively snowing as we

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have this discussion.
So I've I've succeeded.

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You succeeded, Yeah, No, Yeah.
Well, you're in the state.

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Is that the state of 1000 lakes
or a 10,000 lakes or something

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like that right?
So we got more than that, but we

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just stopped counting at 10,000.
There you go.

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Well, I mean, you know, you like
the outdoors and that's great.

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I do too.
And I think any environmental

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loving person is kind of drawn
to nature.

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That's where they first, I
think, get their passion for

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preserving our environment and
doing what we can to preserve it

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and conserve it for future
generations and for our own

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benefits.
So I think that's a great segue

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into what you've been doing and
why you wrote the book.

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I mean, So what motivated you,
right, what we can do and how

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does it differ from other
climate books that often focus

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on like the crisis is happening
and you know, more than and and

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rather than, you know, making it
an optimistic view book.

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Yeah, you know, it's a great
question.

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Now there's the cheeky answer,
which is it was COVID and I was

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really bored.
I was just playing a lot of

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video games on my couch and I
wanted to do something better

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with my time.
But there's the more pragmatic

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answer of the climate change
isn't really like crises that

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we're used to as humanity.
Most crises that we're used to

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tend to be relatively short
lived.

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And so, you know, we're really
good as humans at galvanizing

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against short term crisis.
Like if if your house were to

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catch on fire, people would
hopefully kind of arrange

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themselves quickly to be able
to, you know, extract you and

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save you.
But like, if the house is just

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simmering and it's been
simmering for decades, the

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crisis language kind of burns
people out.

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And it has, in my mind,
sometimes the opposite effect of

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what you're looking for, which
is some people feel so

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overwhelmed that they just give
up.

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And if they're giving up, well,
they're basically, you know,

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there's no better than being a
climate denier in many regards

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because your actions end up
being the same.

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You're like, nothing I do
matters, so why do anything?

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And then, you know, you go and
live a life that might not

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necessarily help the planet.
But the good news is we all can

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do something.
It's why I called it what we can

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do.
And we'll get obviously get into

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the details, but you know, just
by virtue of some of the things

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I've seen in my professional
career, as you know, a long term

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sustainability professional in
the, in Microsoft currently, is

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there so many things we can do
in our personal lives, in our

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professional lives, in our
political lives, if we only kind

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of know where to look and have
the the real grounded data to

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understand the real important
things to, to make a difference.

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So like, obviously turning off
the lights when you are out of a

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room is a great place to start.
But now we can like quantify

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like how valuable is that
compared to driving an electric

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vehicle or, you know, eating
chicken instead of beef like

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that?
That's where it gets really fun,

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is the data is here to make us
more empowered than ever.

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Yeah, when I read the book, I
was trying to wrap my head

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around that data process.
Like, how am I quantifying the

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impact of of, you know, the
various activities, whether

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that's buying a car, recycling,
you know, curbside recycling,

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driving back and forth to work,
all of those data points for

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emission calculations can be
extremely daunting for people to

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go wrap their head around.
And at that point, you kind of

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just like, I give up.
I can't figure this out, right?

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I mean, I think there's a
challenge there with a lot of

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people that want to do good, but
you really can't wrap your head

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around how do I even figure out
the bad I'm doing or the good I

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am impacting, right?
Because it's too complicated to

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get the data.
Well, it's not just too

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complicated, it's sometimes
literally impossible.

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So, you know, I say it in the
book, we're kind of at day one

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of carbon accounting and, and,
and your listeners like, oh God,

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he's already talking about
accounting.

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It's like 3 minutes in.
But hold it, Hold on, because

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it's quite a fun topic.
This is literally just the same

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thing as figuring out how many
calories are in your food.

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You know, there had to be a lot
of work to figure out how to

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actually do that and then
standardize it so you could see

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that across everything.
The industry is learning how to

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do that, but for carbon
emissions, for greenhouse gas

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emissions.
And that is awesome.

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And eventually my dream is that
that becomes ubiquitous across

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pretty much every product.
You can already see it in some

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places, like a sweet green will
actually put the carbon

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footprint of your meal next to
it.

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And there's actually a local ice
cream shop here in Minnesota

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that has the carbon footprint or
the relative environmental

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impact of the ice cream flavor
that you pick, like starting to

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permeate.
But.

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Until it permeates all the way
kind of understanding what are

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the frameworks and the general
guidelines now that we have data

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on some of the things I really
do feel helps us make the more

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sustainable decision in most
everything now and we can get

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into exactly what that is of
course.

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Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Well, I mean, you describe

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yourself as a climate optimist.
How did you balance optimism

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with the urgency of this climate
crisis?

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Because a lot of people put out
there this existential threat,

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you know, like this is, you
know, we're going to all die,

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you know, anytime, you know,
soon if we don't change by 2050.

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And, and I think that's a little
overshooting the existential

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threat that we really do face.
However, I feel like there is

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reality in this climate issue
that we need to address that we

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should be paying attention to.
It's just how do we do it in AI

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guess meaningful way that
society wise, we don't hurt

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ourselves like everyone's
financially struggling because

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we we, we've, you know, adopted
these crazy policies that we

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can't really deliver on right
away.

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And anyways, I think there's
just like this whole thing.

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So I want to be optimistic about
it and do the right thing.

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But how?
How do you balance all this?

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No, it's an awesome question.
And I also want to clarify when

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I say optimism, like, who am I
targeting with that message?

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If you are, you know, watching
your house get flooded away, I

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am not telling you to be more
optimistic that you've just

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become a victim of climate
change.

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Obviously not.
You're a victim.

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The, the focus that I'm on is
around, you know, for those of

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us who are fortunate enough to
be able to be part of the

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solution, the optimism language
is a pragmatic language.

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And it's not just like, oh,
let's feel better about things.

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It's oh, actually, if we turn
the way we think about things as

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a crisis and a challenge and a
fear into an opportunity and

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something that can bring us joy
working on the solutions.

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That's really important, not
just for ourselves and our own

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ability to not burn out, but
also for our ability to pull

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other people who might not have
started on their journey into

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the space.
It's one of the things I saw was

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was so critical in my day job
is, you know, so much of the

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actual sustainability work
happens by people with regular

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jobs, people who do not have a
sustainability background.

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And they would much rather be
inspired into coming and helping

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you rather than shamed and
saying like, oh, if if you don't

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change the design of this mouse,
then we're going to write a

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strongly worded letter against
you.

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Like, I mean, like, that's kind
of the sad reality, Sean, And

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you know, this just as well as I
do is a lot of times you don't

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have a ton of leverage in
sustainability.

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And so it's being more
intentional and pragmatic around

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like, well, in a world where I
might not have any technical

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leverage against other people to
get them to do what I want to

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do, what are the other ways that
actually get people excited to

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want to do things?
And that's where optimism in my

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mind really fits in.
Well, that's good.

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I mean, yeah, I think, you know,
there's some good themes in the

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book I want to get to.
I really like that you touched

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on.
I think when I started to read

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the book and I really was going
through the first couple

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chapters, I was like, Oh my
gosh, there's so much thought

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that goes into like, you know,
does everybody really think like

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this?
Does everyone really want to

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know their carbon impact?
I mean, you know, because I was

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starting to get get concerned
just as I was reading going, Oh

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00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,920
my gosh, there's a lot of
thought that goes into every

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step, every practice, everything
you do in life and will society

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or the common man, so to speak,
person woman read this go.

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Oh yeah, I'm I'm aligning with
this because I think like this

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every day.
It's really affecting me my my

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core being right.
So I was kind of wondering, wow,

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OK, But then we started getting
into some of the real practical

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examples, which started to
really kind of change the way I

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was looking at the book and I
was like, OK, this is good.

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I really like this.
So in the book you introduce

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some, make it, move it, lose it,
use it frameworks and and.

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00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,040
Can you explain how this came
about and why it resonates with

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00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,200
readers when you start really
kind of explaining it?

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Yeah, that's kind of my fun
overlay of something that's a

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lot more of a technical science.
It's called life cycle

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00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,200
assessment.
And so for the listeners who

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might not know what that is,
it's an attempt to look at the

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product you have and figure out
what are the calories, the

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carbon calories of that product.
But the thing that's unique

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about life cycle assessment is
that it, it looks at everything

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it took to make that product
happen.

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So for example, I'll hold up my
phone.

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Normally when you think about
the energy of your or like what

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it takes to make your phone or
the energy of your phone, you're

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kind of just thinking about
charging it.

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00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,000
But what you don't necessarily
look at is, well, all the raw

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00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,360
materials that had to get mined
and all sent to an assembler.

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00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,920
And then, you know, having that
assembly happened, then having

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00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,800
that get put on a plane or a
boat or a train to move to the

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00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,720
stores.
And then people actually driving

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00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:48,080
to the stores and picking them
up.

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00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,440
The only reason any of that
activity is happening is because

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00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,400
of that purchase of the phone.
And so the the make it move it

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00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,880
lose it, use it framework.
I, I screwed that up.

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00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,160
Make it, move it, use it, lose
it framework is trying to

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00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,680
understand like, what are the
impact of making something?

236
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,760
What are the impact of what is
the impact of moving it to you?

237
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,760
What is the impact of you using
it?

238
00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,480
And then what is the impact of
you quote UN quote losing it,

239
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,320
which I had to say that to make
it rhyme.

240
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,400
But that's like if you're
recycling it or throwing it away

241
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,000
at end of life, there's also
energy required to like

242
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,800
incinerate something if you are
tossing it away.

243
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:25,720
And this is such a fun, profound
framework because you start to,

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00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,480
for the folks that have started,
you know, publishing their data,

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00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,320
see some really interesting
stuff.

246
00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:33,320
And I'll give an example,
actually, it's a fun one, Sean.

247
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,360
And for my book, you can apply
this even to literally a book.

248
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,920
And so I did a lot of work to
reduce the environmental impact

249
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,040
of the book, which is quite fun.
And we got it down to the

250
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,720
emissions equivalent of a year
of charging a smartphone a year.

251
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,920
And it's like, wow, that's
actually already a really low

252
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:52,960
carbon book.
But that's how like much the

253
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,600
impact of making things can
sometimes overweight the impact

254
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,000
of using something.
So like, even though I want of

255
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,480
course to have a physical book
for folks that want that option,

256
00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:03,800
now that we have this framework,
we also know like, hey,

257
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,800
listening to it on audiobook or
reading it on an ebook that's

258
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,080
like hundreds of times lower.
Impact, Yeah, right.

259
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,720
Yeah, No, that, that is true.
I I agree with that.

260
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,280
That's great.
I mean, of course, I I'm kind of

261
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,440
a old school guy.
I do like reading the actual

262
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,280
book itself because I write
notes in it and the underlying

263
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,800
stuff and can pull out.
And but I do like the idea of

264
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,840
like, hey, well, why don't you
hand that book over to somebody

265
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,200
to read, give it back to you,
recycle it, you know, reuse it,

266
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,920
that type of stuff, which makes
sense.

267
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,400
And I think, you know, society,
I was the other day, I was at a

268
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,360
dollar Dollar Tree.
You've been a Dollar Tree.

269
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,240
OK, You go there and they, they
got good stuff.

270
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,240
I mean, as far as what you need
to, you know, make crafts or

271
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,040
some necessities or things like
that.

272
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,320
But what caught my eye the other
day when I was there was

273
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:53,560
everything was made in a way
that was so temporary, you know,

274
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:58,400
was it like designed for like
long term longevity use?

275
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,880
Like almost, I wouldn't quite
say one time use, but definitely

276
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:08,320
not, you know, 3 or 4, right.
So I was like, wow.

277
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,840
And, and it kind of goes back
to, you know, one of the, the

278
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,040
comments in the chapter in, in
one of your chapters, which I

279
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,560
think it was in Chapter 14,
which was the buying signal.

280
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,000
Oh yeah.
The signal virtuing is what I

281
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,320
was calling it, you know, I
mean, you call it the, you know,

282
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,880
the the economic signal, but
it's a virtue signal of people

283
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,360
are buying with based on their
values, right.

284
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:40,040
And so I was like, wow, we're
really not making products to to

285
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,920
have longevity as much as you
know, well, and I wouldn't say

286
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,040
everywhere because there are
some good products out there

287
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,960
that, you know, have longevity.
Cars for one thing, I think are

288
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,320
they last for, I mean 23400
thousand mile?

289
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,200
I mean I just got rid of a car
unfortunately just because the

290
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,280
transmission went out but it had
245,000 miles on it.

291
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,120
Yeah.
That's a good run on a car,

292
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:04,880
right?
Good run.

293
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,320
That is good run and so they
make them more efficient in a

294
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:10,640
lot of ways as long as you keep
them up.

295
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,040
But anyways, I guess this whole
concept of being the the more of

296
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,720
a disposable society as far as
products, that's a big concern.

297
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,440
I think until society starts to
change their ideas of what's

298
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,480
really valuable as far as buying
something and reusing it and

299
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,640
reusing or fixing it.
I mean, where's the mechanics of

300
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,480
the, of the, of the day or the,
you know, the guy, the handy

301
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,960
guys and just fix things and
reuse them.

302
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,320
That kind of is a lost art in
our society.

303
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,160
It is, but also, you know,
sometimes the manufacturers are

304
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:44,520
making it more difficult for
you.

305
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,000
So one of my favorite totally
bipartisan movements of the last

306
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,040
five years has been the right to
repair movement.

307
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,160
And from an environmental point
of view that's awesome because

308
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,600
as we said, there's a hidden
cost often of making things.

309
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,800
There's a lot more impact that
goes to making things then we

310
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,920
might normally think about and
repairability is a great way to

311
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,400
improve the longevity of that
thing.

312
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,320
And so, you know, laws that let
you actually fix your thing,

313
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,120
make it so that there have to be
spare and replacement parts to

314
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,760
do it.
That's so important.

315
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:15,440
And I'll give give a couple of
fun examples.

316
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,880
Here is I'm going to say
something that is like the most

317
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,120
evil thing I could possibly say,
and I hope nobody gets any

318
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,600
inspiration.
Imagine if your car had a kill

319
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,840
switch in it.
It said after 50,000 miles the

320
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,960
car is updated.
Over there, it's kind of.

321
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,840
Kill the motor.
Oh my God, wouldn't that be a

322
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,680
nightmare scenario?
Like that has to, you know,

323
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,120
obviously if that ever happened,
don't buy from that car company.

324
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,680
But also that's where the the
regulation and legislation is so

325
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,640
important.
But also just thinking about the

326
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,720
other side of it of anti
repairability and like anti

327
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,720
repair design, that has to
change too.

328
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,800
I remember I had a piece of
luggage once and the, the, the

329
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:54,400
handle got broken.
I was like, oh, I'll just go

330
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,440
ahead and fix it.
The only way for me to get to

331
00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,720
the screws to, to fix it, I
would have to cut through the

332
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,440
fabric at the bottom of it.
I couldn't remove it without

333
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,480
putting it back.
So I'd have to literally destroy

334
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,920
my own piece of luggage to try
to fix it.

335
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,040
So that, and that's a fun one
where you know, if we are

336
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,640
consumers, we want to reward the
companies that are creating more

337
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,800
repairable.
Better design, better design,

338
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:18,680
right?
Oh, God, yeah.

339
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,760
But also if we're in the
companies, like pushings, like,

340
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,440
hey, can we make our products
more repairable?

341
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,960
Or if we're just at the ballot
box, like I'm pretty sure

342
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,560
Duluth, MN just had a right to
repair item on the most recent

343
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,440
ballot.
Like, you have opportunities to

344
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,040
vote on this stuff or vote for
people who are going to report

345
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,960
support it as well.
So there's a lot of different

346
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:43,720
ways to tackle something like So
I don't go, I can wax poetic

347
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,680
about repairability, but I'm
going to stop right here.

348
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,600
Yeah, no, that's, that's great.
I mean, hello ET Nation.

349
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,840
I want to thank you for
listening to the podcast.

350
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,720
If you're enjoying the
interviews we bring you,

351
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,080
consider supporting the program
by visiting my website at

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00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,040
seankgrady.com and buy me a cup
of coffee.

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00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,960
Proceeds will go towards helping
me continue producing timely

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content and offset production
costs.

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I'd also like to take a moment
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I mean, well, you know, in the
book you kind of outline top ten

396
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,680
actions you highlight that you
think have the greatest

397
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,240
potential impact if widely
adopted.

398
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,280
Let's talk a little bit about
some of those if you could, and

399
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,360
maybe hit the ones that you
think are the best.

400
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,320
Yeah.
And I think this is where it's

401
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,520
so valuable for us to remember
that we live in larger spheres

402
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,480
of people, larger impact spheres
of communities where like when

403
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,960
we're making decisions in our
regular lives, we're kind of

404
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,680
only making decisions for
ourselves, maybe our families.

405
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,040
And so the impact therefore is
one to five people's worth of

406
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,880
impact.
You know, you go to a farmers

407
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,000
market and you say, you know
what, today I'm not going to use

408
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,720
a plastic bag for this head of
lettuce.

409
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,520
And that's awesome and you
should do that.

410
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:14,600
But that saves one plastic bag.
But if you are the person in

411
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,000
charge of the stand, you can
make the decisions like I'm not

412
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,560
going to offer plastic bags to
people and maybe that's 1000.

413
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,520
Then plastic bags you get to
avoid because you're giving

414
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,920
paper bags instead.
And so like, you know, that's

415
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,960
1000 X multiplier if you start
layering it into your work.

416
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,920
And then it can be a million X
multiplier if you vote for it.

417
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:37,400
And so I remember doing the math
on why voting in particular is

418
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,320
one of the top things you can do
in that top ten list.

419
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,640
I forget if it's number, I think
it's number two or three is

420
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:47,440
literally a single vote for a
politician that supported the

421
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,040
Inflation Reduction Act back in
20-20 that would have had the

422
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,760
equivalent of 2 1/2 years of
your emissions just from a

423
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,560
single vote.
That's how powerful the

424
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,120
Inflation Reduction Act was in
terms of putting the right

425
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:01,440
policies and the right
incentives in play to

426
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,960
decarbonize the entire economy.
And we're still going to see a

427
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,000
lot of that benefit even though
a lot of of it's been rolled

428
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,320
back.
So maybe it's not 2 1/2 years of

429
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,040
your emissions anymore.
It might only be 1.5 but still

430
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,120
like.
It's good.

431
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,800
In terms of bang for your buck,
like literally just going on a

432
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,320
Tuesday to vote, that's more
impactful than you turning the

433
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,120
lights off on your home for two
straight years.

434
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,960
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean that those are

435
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:23,560
good.
Those are good anecdotes.

436
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,640
You know, I think 2 basic things
for everyday people who are just

437
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,920
living normal lives.
I mean, I think most of us have

438
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,160
curbside recycling.
We have a recycle bin at that at

439
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,080
the house.
You know, I think most of us are

440
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,360
thinking we need to reduce our
electricity use, you know, save

441
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:45,440
money, right?
Like a lot of it's been, you

442
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,680
know, directly associated with
saving money because it's a cost

443
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,040
to us as individuals.
So it's like, why wouldn't you

444
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:57,400
do these things, right?
But I think, you know, those are

445
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,480
those are things I think we can
all do.

446
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,800
And I like the idea of getting
involved with groups, things

447
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,680
like that, that can to help
change a little bit here and

448
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,520
there.
You know, some of the critics

449
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,760
argue individual actions are too
small compared to like, a

450
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,560
systemic change.
But how does your book reconcile

451
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,320
personal responsibility with the
need for corporate and

452
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,040
government action?
Yeah.

453
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,880
And so we mentioned, you know, I
just mentioned a little bit some

454
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,120
of the, you know, kind of like
supporting the right to repair

455
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:26,680
there, the value of a vote for
the Inflation Reduction Act.

456
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,520
But to that point of the
individual action, First off,

457
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,840
those are individual actions.
You know, voting is the most

458
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,080
important.
But you, you mentioned it

459
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,360
before, it's that, that, that
purchase signal to, to the

460
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:41,360
makers of the things.
I think sometimes people just

461
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,200
look at their own frame of
reference of, oh, I'm going to

462
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,120
buy the large bulk bag of cereal
because it's cheaper, bang for

463
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:51,720
the buck, and that way I can
have cereal for longer and

464
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,000
that's awesome.
But what you're also sending is

465
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,720
a signal to the manufacturer of
that cereal that that is

466
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,240
something that they might want
to keep investing in because

467
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,400
they can keep selling it.
And I think this is something

468
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,960
that people don't realize how
powerful that signal can be.

469
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,560
Like within Microsoft, I have
been in so many meetings where

470
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,400
someone will be like, hey,
sustainability is a top three

471
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,320
purchase intent.
So now we have to go invest in

472
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:17,600
like make sure that we can do
it.

473
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,520
And that only happens if people
are voting with their their

474
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,720
wallets, but also voting in like
surveys.

475
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,520
You know, one of the funniest
things, Sean, that like everyone

476
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,600
overlooks is the environmental
impact of leaving a positive

477
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,320
review on a product that is
environmentally friendly.

478
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,680
Oh my God, I wrote a whole blog
about it is, you know, the way

479
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,080
we decide what to buy, We think
it's entirely us.

480
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,200
We are so socially conditioned
to buy the things that other

481
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,480
people say are good.
Like when?

482
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,400
Out of curiosity Sean, when's
the last time you bought

483
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,280
something on Amazon with a
rating of less than 4.6?

484
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,520
Yeah.
I mean, I don't really know.

485
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,960
I really.
Yeah, I couldn't quite tell you.

486
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,800
My wife does most of the Amazon.
I mean, I'll buy a few things

487
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,560
there, but usually it's
something I really want to get.

488
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,760
But yeah, no, but you're right.
I mean, you're looking at if

489
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,400
you're going to go, like if
you're going to a restaurant,

490
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,040
right, and you're on Yelp or
something, you want to say, hey,

491
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,600
how many stars those guys have?
Yeah.

492
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,960
You're buying off the feedback
of customers.

493
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,280
I get what you're saying there.
And I yeah, I'm with you.

494
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,120
I think you do want to buy
products that have good reviews,

495
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,800
right?
It's very natural, very human,

496
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,720
but then you kind of under like
realize that is the secret and

497
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,080
sneaky way that people get
directed into determining what

498
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,840
to buy beyond the traditional
levers of like price and quality

499
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,600
and availability, etcetera.
And you know, just on a personal

500
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,840
anecdote, you know, I am a big
urbanist in the sense of I

501
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,320
really want to see thriving
urban environments.

502
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,160
I love the walkability.
I love being able to walk to a

503
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,520
restaurant and walk home and
there's a restaurant I went to

504
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,200
recently that I just thought was
the most amazing food I'd had in

505
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,360
a long time.
And I looked him up on Yelp and

506
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,080
it was a 3.6 review.
And I was like, I got to do

507
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,320
something about that.
So set up Yelp account gave him

508
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,680
the five star review,
encouraging other people to go

509
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,680
to that restaurant and also give
five star reviews.

510
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:05,960
And you might be like, wow, what
does that really matter?

511
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,280
But I mean, it can be the
difference between life and

512
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,360
death for some of these
companies and some of these

513
00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:12,760
products, and I'm not.
Just saying that businesses too,

514
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,320
right, small businesses, they
need those, those positive, you

515
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,880
know, reviews to, to sustain
their business.

516
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,640
I mean, you're right.
I think there is a lot there.

517
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,400
I mean, heck, look, I'm, I'm the
same way with a podcast.

518
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,440
I'm like, hey guys, can you at
least leave a review every now

519
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,480
and then?
I I get likes occasionally, but

520
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,840
the reviews are fairly low.
Be honest with you.

521
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,280
And I'm like, there's a lot of
people listening to podcasts.

522
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,800
I know they are every time I
will go someplace like, oh, I

523
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,360
listen to your show.
I was like, oh, OK, good,

524
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:42,480
thanks.
I really appreciate it.

525
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,720
But I don't hear any feedback.
I don't get, it's like you put

526
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,600
it out in the Internet and
you're like, well, it went to

527
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,040
the cloud.
Who knows where it went?

528
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,000
There's our call to action.
Anyone listening is when you're

529
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,920
done, do Shawn a favor and throw
him a nice review.

530
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,400
Absolutely.
I mean, it's great to get the

531
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,560
feedback.
It kind of gets you motivated,

532
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,040
keeps you going, right?
I mean, it's funny, I've been

533
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:04,880
doing this podcast now for five
years.

534
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,680
I can't believe it.
I started during COVID, didn't

535
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,040
have much to do.
Like you writing a book, you

536
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,360
know?
And I thought, well, jeez, I got

537
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,240
to do something.
I've been in this environmental

538
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,360
industry for nearly 30 years and
I said I don't think there's

539
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:21,240
anybody that's really doing an
industry, an environmental

540
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,240
industry podcast covering all
the topics.

541
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,120
I mean, you've got like a safety
person doing safety, you got

542
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,280
climate or sustainability, and
they're only doing that, but

543
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,120
they'll cover all of the topics.
And I figured I think we could

544
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:36,720
do a really good job about this.
And so here we are five years in

545
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,200
and we're just still going
strong.

546
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,600
It's been so much fun.
I meet great people like you and

547
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,000
others, and it's been just a
blast.

548
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:44,960
Totally.
But then in terms of

549
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,680
discoverability for people who
you don't know or who have never

550
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,120
heard it to stumble across that
podcast, that's where the

551
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:53,080
reviews become so important too,
which is another another call to

552
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,280
give Sean a nice review because
and same thing for my book.

553
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,480
Like if my book were to have a
three star review on Amazon or

554
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,040
something, no one would buy it
from Amazon.

555
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,640
And it's not that.
And that can be so influenced.

556
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,960
It could just be 5 people out of
500 that didn't like it.

557
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,600
And we're so animated that they
wanted to give it a bad review.

558
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,480
And so it's it's almost like the
gerrymandering of our minds.

559
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,560
Like boy.
Yeah, Anyway, not to keep going

560
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,000
on reviews.
As you can tell Sean, I can get

561
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:21,960
real animated about a lot of
topics.

562
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:24,600
No, it's great.
I mean, I love it because, you

563
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,640
know, there's a lot of
enthusiasm here.

564
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,120
You know, one of the things I
liked about the book that we,

565
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:34,920
you know, you kind of touched on
was every job can be a

566
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,640
sustainability job.
I mean, and, and I thought

567
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,160
through that and I was like,
yeah, it really can, if you

568
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:46,880
frame activities you're doing in
light of how it impacts from a

569
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,080
sustainability lens a green
decision or whatever, right?

570
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,040
And I kind of like we've talked
about that in the in the past on

571
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,200
the podcast, but walk through a
little bit about the core

572
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,160
framework a little bit, if you
could for listeners, because I

573
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,520
think that was an important
segment in Chapter 8, how you

574
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,160
kind of discuss that and how
that can relate to everybody's

575
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,080
job.
Yeah, and and when I say every

576
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,920
job can be a sustainability job,
I'm not the first person to say

577
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,320
it.
My friend Drew Wilkinson,

578
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,680
that's, you know, his rallying
cry, not mine.

579
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,760
But I reinforce that because I
really do believe it and it's

580
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,400
from personal experience.
You know, there are not a ton of

581
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,840
folks in the world with
sustainability in their titles.

582
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,360
I'm lucky to be one of them.
But I look at what those roles

583
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,280
tend to do.
And so much of it is basically

584
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,640
trying to make sure that we
build the processes and the

585
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,720
structure so that people without
sustainability in their jobs can

586
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,520
go and do the sustainability
work.

587
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,800
You know, if I'm designing a, a,
a PC and I want it to be the

588
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,440
most sustainable PC in the
world, dear God, you do not want

589
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,920
a bunch of sustainability
professionals to try to design a

590
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,840
computer because I have, I don't
know how the first thing about

591
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,680
actually, you know, the
electrical engineering and all

592
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,920
that, you know, you mention I
have my physics background.

593
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,920
That's a Bachelor of Arts, which
meant I was taking theater at

594
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,440
the same time.
So I don't think that counts.

595
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,640
But but yeah, I mean, like, you
know, it's so much about if

596
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,760
you're a sustainability
professional, bringing the folks

597
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,080
who have the really good skill
sets and other things to

598
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,000
basically give them just enough
insight and, and inspiration and

599
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,560
optimism and tooling so they can
then go and start to see

600
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,360
themselves as part of the
journey too.

601
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,440
So the core framework is a
framework in my book focused on

602
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,240
what people can do themselves if
they want to be that change on

603
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,920
their own.
So core, CORE, the C is connect

604
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,880
to impact.
And that's the notion of like,

605
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,000
hey, maybe the work you're
already doing is like hella

606
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,080
sustainable anyway, but you're
not branding it as such.

607
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,880
You're not thinking of it as
such, like anybody who works on

608
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,320
anything with regards to
efficiency, Hey, guess what?

609
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,120
You're already working on
sustainability.

610
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,400
And these are those things where
if you can start to put it in

611
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,000
the language of sustainability,
that's a jumping point to start

612
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,280
to do more.
The O is the organized

613
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,760
internally.
That's oftentimes thinking about

614
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,560
that we're more powerful as
groups than individuals and

615
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,680
thinking about, you know, can
you start an employee research

616
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,040
resources group around
sustainability at your company

617
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,560
or can you find other people who
are like minded?

618
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,480
And then if you all come
together, you might be able to

619
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,240
have, you know, you're bringing
the band together.

620
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,280
But if you're just a bassist,
it's hard make a real solid

621
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,120
album if you don't have the
drummer and the singer and the

622
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,560
guitarist.
And you know, I'll give a shout

623
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,440
out to the flugelhorn in case
somebody's in a flugelhorn rock

624
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,400
band somewhere.
The the R is reduced waste.

625
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,320
And this is a classic one where
just there's, that's my friend

626
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,720
calls it the gateway drug to
sustainability.

627
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,920
I love that.
Yeah, I love that day comment.

628
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,320
I was like, oh, this is so true.
It's like the door opener.

629
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,720
We all see waste and nobody
likes waste.

630
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,680
I mean, like, even if you're a
climate skeptics skeptic, you

631
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,000
probably don't love seeing a
bunch of trash dumped or a bunch

632
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,800
of food thrown out.
That was perfectly fine.

633
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,600
Nobody likes that.
And so much of the initial kind

634
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,640
of getting started is just
saying, hey, where's waste

635
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,360
happening around me?
And can I, can I just volunteer

636
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,320
to see if something can change?
And then that could leads into

637
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,800
the E of the core framework,
which is enact the change.

638
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,880
And that's saying, hey, I'm
going to be the one to do it.

639
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,760
And that's like the big secret I
found Sean is at so many

640
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,520
companies and in so many
communities, it's not, there's

641
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,880
not like a good reason that
sustainability isn't happening.

642
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,360
It's not like some higher up
said, you know what, screw

643
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,080
sustainability.
I'm banning it from the

644
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:22,760
premises.
Now, obviously if you work in

645
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,120
the federal government right
now, it's a different story.

646
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,920
But if you are at a regular,
like, shop or whatever,

647
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,600
sometimes it's just being like,
hey, can I work on

648
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,520
sustainability is enough for
someone to be like, oh, what do

649
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:35,960
you mean?
Like, what does that look like?

650
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,520
And you see that everywhere from
like Coldplay decided to put out

651
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,600
a sustainability report to like
a wedding venue here in

652
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,360
Minnesota has a sustainability
wedding package.

653
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,480
And no one's telling them that
they have to do this.

654
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,120
There are people who are like,
what if I give it a shot?

655
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,520
And that's kind of the same
thing, Sean, with like me as an

656
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,160
author is going to my publisher
and saying, hey, the physical

657
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,080
book, I want to make this the
most sustainable book that

658
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,000
you've ever made.
And that was really fun for me

659
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,920
and for them because they're
like, wow, no authors ever asked

660
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,760
us that before, but they have
the capability to do it.

661
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,000
Obviously, we figured it out.
And it just takes someone asking

662
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,520
and enacting that change to be
the start of that movement to

663
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,880
hopefully now they can do that
with more and more of their

664
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,640
authors and ideally the entire
publishing industry at some

665
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,520
point.
Well, I really liked some of the

666
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,520
examples you had in chapter 8
there about, you know, using

667
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,840
core in.
And I think what, you know, the

668
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,520
one that really kind of struck
me was the first one you talked

669
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:38,080
about the software salesman,
because I, you know, you're like

670
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,440
this guy just sells software.
I mean, what I mean, what's he

671
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,960
going to do?
But as you start, as you started

672
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:48,680
to explain how the impact of
using this new product is more

673
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,080
makes maybe your equipment more
efficient, less energy can

674
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,000
demand.
I mean, now you start to tie all

675
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:00,880
these benefits of the product to
a sustainability perspective

676
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,000
that people are like not even
thinking of.

677
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,680
Then it becomes this
differentiator that goes, oh,

678
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,480
wow, not only can this product
do this, but we're going to send

679
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,120
probably no other person that,
you know, highlighted those

680
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,520
types of benefits that are
ticking a box that, you know,

681
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,000
from a sustainability
perspective of buying something

682
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,239
that maybe a corporate
purchasing person cares about.

683
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,840
Right?
I just had this conversation

684
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,920
just the other day with a, a
contractor who was doing some

685
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,639
work actually at my house.
And I said, I said, you know,

686
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:38,679
construction, managing
construction debris and all

687
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,000
that.
I said you, you could easily,

688
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,560
cuz he asked me what I did for a
living.

689
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:44,320
And I started to explain it to
him.

690
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,840
And he was like, you know, he
was just trying to put it all

691
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:47,719
together, right?
Cuz.

692
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,800
And I said, well, you know, I, I
work in waste management for big

693
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:58,280
company Veolia, who I work for.
And so we're focused on reduce,

694
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,640
reuse, recycle.
The whole sustainability theme

695
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,560
is, is the core to our fabric of
our business, right?

696
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,640
And I said you could present
your sustainability efforts to

697
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,920
your customers by saying, hey,
we recycle all our products,

698
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,640
weigh all our construction
demolition debris that we take

699
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,680
out of here.
We do this.

700
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,040
And, and you don't have to.
You could just use it as a

701
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:26,000
promotional type activity that
you do, which no one else is

702
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,120
probably going to be doing.
And somebody's going to care and

703
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,880
you're going to get a job just
because somebody cares.

704
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,200
The fact that you take good care
of the environment by recycling

705
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,160
the plastic, all the wood, all
the, you know, metal, everything

706
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,240
out of there.
And then you're like, wow.

707
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,720
And he's like, yeah, that's a
really, really good idea.

708
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:46,120
I never thought of that.
And so it was like this whole

709
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,200
concept, what you just described
in here in this chapter, I was

710
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,120
like, wow, this is really cool.
So I just was like, it is like,

711
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:54,840
every job can be a
sustainability job.

712
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,080
It's just how you frame it.
And I think for far too long

713
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,520
that I've noticed, you know, the
whole sustainability themes and

714
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,520
terminology started to really
creep up into society, you know,

715
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,680
late 2000, late 2010, or, you
know, let's say in the, you

716
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:17,160
know, 2015 on people start
really talking about it.

717
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,280
But there still wasn't really a
big push.

718
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,440
I think one problem that
happened that I saw in the

719
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,520
industry was that the waste
industry was slow to adopt the

720
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,280
language.
And that's what they do.

721
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,200
And they're sustainability
professionals and they were

722
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,680
shaping up with the jargon and
re, you know, positioning their

723
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,320
value pitch to their customers
that they are the most

724
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,760
sustainable and it took them a
while.

725
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,360
Now they are doing it,
obviously, but it took them a

726
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,120
while.
I was very shocked.

727
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,200
I was like, well, we're the OG
of sustainability.

728
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,600
That's what we do.
Totally.

729
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,920
Yeah.
You know, it's so funny and it's

730
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,480
not.
And I think I want to kind of

731
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,080
address what what some listeners
might have creeping into their

732
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,440
mind that this is not like an
invitation for everyone to go

733
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,000
greenwash.
It's certainly not, you know,

734
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,640
but it is an invitation to say
like, are we doing things that

735
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,920
we're just not talking about?
Yeah.

736
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:08,720
Are really helpful for the
environment.

737
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:11,040
And we just.
It's a missed opportunity to not

738
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,520
mention it to people like that
was Sean.

739
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:14,880
You know, just think about my
own background.

740
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,360
If folks are curious as to how I
got into the sustainability

741
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,000
profession.
Sean mentioned I have a

742
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,720
background in physics.
That's cool that I use it for my

743
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:22,520
career.
Not at all.

744
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,600
I actually came from an events
role.

745
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,920
I haven't.
I took no sustainability classes

746
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,600
in college.
I ended up in a glorified events

747
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,480
role before joining Microsoft to
do sustainability work.

748
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,680
And when we were there, that was
one of my Aha's.

749
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,560
I was looking at the topics that
we were putting together for our

750
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,520
events, and of course, I was
trying to direct them to be more

751
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,760
about sustainability.
And I was like, wait a second,

752
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,560
we are convening some of the
world's most preeminent supply

753
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,120
chain leaders to talk about
sustainability.

754
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,920
And there's probably in this
room a collective opportunity to

755
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,840
have some really
transformational industry wide

756
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,360
impact.
And this company has never said

757
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,080
the word sustainability before
in its life.

758
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,880
So I, I remember I was, I got
with the the CEO's

759
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,640
communications team and I said,
Hey, this is a story we're not

760
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,320
telling that we're already
doing.

761
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,360
Let's, let's make people aware
of it.

762
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,880
And, you know, to their credit,
they said that sounds great,

763
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,960
let's buy it.
And then it was a whole company,

764
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,440
like, you know, the whole town
hall at the whole company got to

765
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,880
watch little old me on camera.
I was, I think 26 at the time,

766
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,320
basically saying like, hey, you
know, we literally just had a

767
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,040
massive forum on like what we're
going to do to try to solve the

768
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,920
future water crisis.
And I was like, wow, our product

769
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,040
can do that for people.
And it's like, yeah.

770
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:44,320
And so like, ironically also
Sean, which is fun, is that's

771
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,560
how I got my job, is one of the
people in that community was my

772
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,120
future boss at Microsoft.
And she effectively was just

773
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,360
like, all right, Charlie, you've
convinced me sustainability is

774
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:54,440
important.
I get it.

775
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:55,720
I don't know what to do about
it, though.

776
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:58,040
Do you want to come and like
start my team and help me figure

777
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,560
it out?
So in that case, I actually got

778
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,520
very lucky that I I made my job
just by virtue of using this

779
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,360
framework for myself in an
events role.

780
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,640
Well, you know, that's so
powerful to to see, you know,

781
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,040
you taking up something you're
passionate about driving the

782
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,640
change within your company or
the the events business, it

783
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,560
being recognized by your
customers who you were, who you

784
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,200
were developing a network with a
professional network with that

785
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,280
ended up being your next job and
very.

786
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,120
Lucky, Yeah, but it was
intentional.

787
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:35,200
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, but it all goes back to,

788
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,440
you know, being authentic,
right?

789
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,400
And, and being a good
communicator and networking

790
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,760
properly and keeping good
contacts with people.

791
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,120
I mean, to me, I, I, I try to
emphasize on the show.

792
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:54,200
Networking is so powerful and
it's such a major, major aspect

793
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,480
of anybody's professional career
and and largely a lot of times

794
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,880
just goes undervalued in, in our
business.

795
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:02,440
People like keep their head
down.

796
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:03,680
They're just doing their job
right.

797
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,480
But I'm like, no, guys, you guys
got to really can, you know,

798
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,360
manage your network and keep
your contexts and don't burn

799
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:10,800
bridges.
You know, it's a small world.

800
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,920
We we recycle through businesses
like crazy in this business man.

801
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,440
Oh, yeah.
You know, it's we, the

802
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,760
sustainability world is
relatively small.

803
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,040
You go to any conference and
you're going to see like half

804
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,200
the people you already know.
It's like, oh, good to see you

805
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,720
again.
Even just, you know, like I was

806
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:33,120
at a an energy event here in
Minneapolis on Monday.

807
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,200
And then I bumped into a guy who
I was, I spoke at a conference

808
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:37,720
with in New York with.
I was like, what are you doing

809
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:38,720
here?
He's like, what are you doing

810
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:39,760
here?
I'm like, well, I live here.

811
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,560
He's like, OK, that's fair.
Yeah, right.

812
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,520
Exactly.
Well, you know, couple things

813
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,120
that struck me in, in chapter
14, we were talking about, you

814
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:54,120
know, energy and clean energy
and the, and you know, how do we

815
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,800
make an energy transition?
Because there that is probably

816
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,440
one of the larger systemic type
changes that could happen in

817
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:05,160
society that could have a big
impact or should have a bigger

818
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,640
impact.
And I think, you know, you, you

819
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,400
touched in the book, you know,
the inflation reduction act and

820
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,240
stuff and, and the benefits of
that.

821
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,000
I watched that go through and
unfortunately, I didn't feel

822
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,840
like some of the impact, like,
say, the EV grid that was going

823
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,680
to be, you know, deployed across
the country didn't quite hit the

824
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,200
mark as hope as well as I would
have hoped it could have gone.

825
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,680
Because I still think there's
the a challenge with EV charging

826
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,480
of cars, you know, and at every
maybe gas station or across the

827
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,840
country or whatever, right?
And it just didn't take that

828
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,080
didn't go as far as I was hoping
it would go, to be honest.

829
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,480
Can I, can I maybe
recontextualize that comment,

830
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:45,280
Sean?
Yeah.

831
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,800
Because, you know, the Inflation
Reduction Act was signed in 2022

832
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:51,600
and it was largely rescinded in
2025.

833
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,600
That's only two and a half,
three years of it existing.

834
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,240
Think about comparatively how
long it took to build out the

835
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:00,920
entirety of the gas station
infrastructure.

836
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,240
That we have, right.
Like, that took years, decades.

837
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,760
And so, you know, give a little
grace maybe to the EV corridors.

838
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,560
It's like they tried to do
everything they could in two

839
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,880
years when their competitors
have been doing it for 2050 a

840
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,200
hundred.
That's fair.

841
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,760
That's totally fair.
And I, I agree with you there.

842
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,960
I just was hoping that be more
adoption and maybe I think from

843
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,440
an industry perspective, over
time, naturally the industry

844
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,840
will will, you know, get there
because all the virtue signal

845
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,000
buying will happen by people's
keep buying cars and they're

846
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,200
going to have to make it more
available and and industry will

847
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,680
figure out how to monetize and
and make that affordable for

848
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,240
everybody.
But it's going to take time.

849
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:44,000
And I agree with you there.
So, but I would, you know, I

850
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,640
think a lot of the adoption of
EB cars are still taking a

851
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,200
little time and it's still going
to take time.

852
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,080
And maybe who knows, maybe we
won't be talking EV, maybe we'll

853
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,360
be talking hydrogen by the time
anyways.

854
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:55,600
I don't know.
I mean, there's so much

855
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,720
technology advances going on,
it's crazy.

856
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,640
But I guess going back to the
energy thing, if I want to get

857
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,480
back to that, I did like your
discussion points that you

858
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,320
highlight in some of the
chapters, like, you know, like

859
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,880
what reasons did
environmentalists originally

860
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,520
have for discouraging nuclear
power generation and why is that

861
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,360
stance changing today?
That was a great question.

862
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,320
And I thought, well, you know,
it is more efficiently, it's

863
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,120
cleaner energy.
I think we're probably figuring

864
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,920
out how to maybe better manage
potential, you know, not the

865
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:30,760
potential, but the nuclear waste
at some point.

866
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,720
The one that I also liked in the
subsequent to that one, which

867
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:38,080
was preventing people and
companies from installing solar

868
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:43,440
panels on their homes.
I, I have been this one has

869
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,560
really bugged me for a quite a
while.

870
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,200
I've actually had a couple
episodes on solar here on the

871
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,760
show.
And in my view of solar is this,

872
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,080
unfortunately, the utility
grid's not really set up to be a

873
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,040
storage grid for all the excess
storage power that the solar

874
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,920
could potentially generate.
If we had that many, everyone

875
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,760
had solar on the roof.
So that's a right there is one

876
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,960
of the, I think the biggest
limiting factors that we

877
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:14,000
probably have.
However, I think personally that

878
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,560
solar should be so simple.
Oh yeah.

879
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,240
Like it should be like I go to
Home Depot, I know the size of

880
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:25,880
my home and my roof and I can
put those dimensions in and,

881
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,800
and, and it'll tell me how many
panels I should be able to buy

882
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,760
and give me every piece of
equipment.

883
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,120
It's plug and play, completely
plug and play.

884
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,880
And a caveman can do it, you
know so.

885
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:38,720
Sean.
I think it's go.

886
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,680
Sounds like you need to move to
Germany, Sean, because that's

887
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,280
actually happening.
So yeah, it's, it's amazing.

888
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,760
It's called Balcony Solar.
And so have you heard of it?

889
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,960
No.
That's so cool.

890
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,880
So if you live in Germany, you
can literally go to the

891
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:59,120
supermarket and buy a solar
panel from the supermarket that

892
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,080
you can then hang from your
balcony and just plug into an

893
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,600
outlet in your home.
And then that can then pull

894
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,840
solar panel into your grid in
your house.

895
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:09,480
And it's it's you don't need it.
You don't need a contractor, you

896
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,240
don't need an installer, you
don't need a permit.

897
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:13,680
You can literally just go to the
supermarket and then later that

898
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,800
day have a solar panel ready to
go on your balcony.

899
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,840
Now, unfortunately, the thing
that America is struggles with

900
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,360
is the ironically over
regulation here.

901
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,360
And so like, you know, even for
traditional solar installations

902
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,040
on roofs, I can't remember the
specific number, but I think

903
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,840
like compared to Australia, the
actual cost of implementation of

904
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,960
it is like 3X what it is in
Australia.

905
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,640
You know, people always hear
like, oh, solar panels, solar is

906
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,120
the cheapest form of electricity
in the world.

907
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,000
That is true.
But it's everything around it

908
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,600
that can become expensive if
it's not instrumented in the

909
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,760
right way.
And I think here's two other

910
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,160
things that are really
interesting on this one, Sean.

911
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,360
The 1st is, you know, I didn't
really kind of, it didn't really

912
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,920
click in my head until recently.
But it's like when you install a

913
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,880
solar panel, the marginal cost
of energy goes to 0 because you

914
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,560
don't have to do anything else
for that asset to keep giving

915
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,120
you energy.
But if you have like a diesel

916
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,800
generator or something, there is
a huge marginal cost to running

917
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,080
that thing because you have to
always go and get more fuel and

918
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:13,720
bring it in, get more fuel,
bring it in.

919
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,800
That goes away completely with
solar.

920
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,120
And that's why it can be so
cheap.

921
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,440
But like literally this week, I
think the other thing that's

922
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,480
really fun around solar is this,
you know, burgeoning movement to

923
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,520
decommoditize energy.
I just made a post on this this

924
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,760
week and the kind of the notion
there is like what if we

925
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,960
actually could differentiate
between our energy based on the

926
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,960
source it came from in a more
unique and like interesting way?

927
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:41,920
Like, do you ever play Settlers
of Catan, Sean?

928
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:43,840
No all.
Right.

929
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,960
Well, hopefully some of your
listeners do Settlers Catan was

930
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,200
a lot of my college experience,
but it was, it's a board game

931
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,560
and they just put out a new
version of it called New

932
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,360
Energies.
And they partnered with the

933
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:57,920
company, I think called Clean
Counts.

934
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,760
And they said we want to offset
the impact of making the actual

935
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,560
board game itself.
And then they got to to like

936
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:09,320
pick through like a, a almost
like a menu of different kinds

937
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,560
of ways to do it, different
types of energy projects.

938
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,280
And where they landed was on
pollinator friendly renewable

939
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,640
energy certificates.
Basically, they were buying

940
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,240
energy from a solar farm that
was also, you know, putting a

941
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:24,480
bunch of wildflowers all around
the panels to be able to be a

942
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,640
pollinator friendly habitat.
And like, that's so cool.

943
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:29,920
Now I can, you know, now we're
potentially getting into a world

944
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,000
where you get to like artisanal
energy, like artisanal solar

945
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,000
energy.
It's like, do you want?

946
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,120
Honey, we got some honey for you
too.

947
00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:41,760
Yeah, they literally gave me
some solar honey after the fact.

948
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,080
They're like, yeah, you have
some, have some solar honey, but

949
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:45,520
like.
Who doesn't need honey?

950
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:48,240
What's that?
Who doesn't need honey?

951
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:49,440
Oh.
Exactly, exactly.

952
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,440
But you know, it's, it's like,
OK, do I want the solar, you

953
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,320
know, like the, the bee friendly
solar?

954
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,440
Do I want the, the balcony
solar?

955
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:01,080
Do I want the community solar?
That's like, oh, it's almost

956
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,640
like the community garden where
you like your tomatoes grown in

957
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,280
the community garden, your
energy's grown in the community

958
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,280
solar garden, you know, like.
I mean, yeah, I think that, you

959
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,680
know, because I looked into it
for my own house and, you know,

960
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,040
essentially they came back and
said, well, it's going to cost

961
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,240
you.
I want to say, if I remember

962
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:22,000
right, it was like 55 or $60,000
to put solar on the top of my

963
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,040
house.
I was like, I got to get a

964
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,480
second mortgage for this.
I don't know, I'm not going to

965
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,400
do that.
And and of course then you're

966
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,120
like, why even be in this house
long enough to pay that off,

967
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:31,720
right?
Then Then you know, you're like

968
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:34,440
doing the cost benefit analysis
and as much as you think you'd

969
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,200
want to do it, it ended up just
not, doesn't make sense, which

970
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,280
is unfortunate because it should
be so inexpensive.

971
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,600
Like TV's these days.
A wide screen TV is like what

972
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,520
450 bucks now for like a 52
inch.

973
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,960
I mean, remember when those
things were like 3 grand to buy

974
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:54,800
one of those TV's and now
they're so cheap.

975
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,200
It's like the solar panel should
be so cheap.

976
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,880
And again, I got kind of go back
to this plug and play, you know,

977
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,120
with all the inverters and the
connectors and everything.

978
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,480
I mean, it should be just, I'm,
I'm plugging them against

979
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,720
together and then I, I connected
to the box down in the basement

980
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,880
and whether I have a, a battery
backup or not.

981
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:15,960
You can do it and be affordable
and you can add it over time.

982
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:17,440
You can't get all the panels at
once.

983
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,440
You can get like 10-5 or six of
them and then add another 5 or 6

984
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,120
later.
Make it simple.

985
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,160
And if the industry could do
that and whoever can solve that,

986
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,760
I think internally or you know,
from a, a manufacturing

987
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,440
perspective for everyday common
people, I think that would be a

988
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,280
big change.
And this is where I'm going to

989
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,440
say something slightly
controversial, but this is where

990
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,640
the Inflation Reduction Act
getting rescinded might actually

991
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,640
help a little bit.
And that's you're going to be

992
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,040
like, Charlie, wait a second,
like that took all the subsidies

993
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:49,360
away from solar.
It's going to make it more

994
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,560
expensive in the short term.
Yes, in the short term, if you

995
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,560
missed your window to get solar
on your roof, it's going to get

996
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:55,920
a lot more expensive.
That is a bummer.

997
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,840
But that also then means that
these solar installations are

998
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:01,640
going to really have to start
focusing a lot more on their

999
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,200
cost structure to stay
competitive.

1000
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,760
And so that can then lead to
longer term, you know,

1001
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,440
efficiencies, potentially longer
term deregulation to make it

1002
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,920
more and, you know, affordable
where ideally we can get this

1003
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,240
stuff three times cheaper.
Because to your point, the

1004
00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:18,880
panels themselves are not
expensive.

1005
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,200
That's the cheapest form of
electricity we have in the

1006
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,120
world, bar none.
It's just all the red tape

1007
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,120
around it that makes it so that
we're the one of the most

1008
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,640
expensive countries on earth to
actually install home rooftop

1009
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,960
and home solar.
Well, I mean, yeah.

1010
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,440
And I think we could go down
this rabbit trail a little hole,

1011
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,400
I guess, a little longer, but I
don't know that we should.

1012
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,160
It's good.
But let's talk about a couple

1013
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,800
other things here.
So how do you see emerging

1014
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,360
technologies, AI, cloud
computing, renewable energies,

1015
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,920
and all this, you know, playing
a role accelerating climate

1016
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,840
solutions?
Yeah, You know, this is this is

1017
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:56,280
the really interesting
challenge, right?

1018
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,720
And this is 1 where I'll be
maybe slight somewhat

1019
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:02,800
controversial again, which is if
I think about, you know, my day

1020
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:07,280
job, so much of you know, how
data centers, which is where I'm

1021
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,000
accountable for what so much of
what they're used for is now AI.

1022
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,520
And so AI obviously takes a lot
of energy.

1023
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,320
I think that's pretty well
documented.

1024
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:21,320
But at the same time, it is also
putting a large demand signal

1025
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,920
for clean energy into the world.
And so this is one of those

1026
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,960
interesting challenges where
it's like, well, because there's

1027
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,120
now billions and billions of
dollars flowing into the market.

1028
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,160
Is that money that otherwise
wouldn't have been there without

1029
00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:36,680
AI?
Like would that still have

1030
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:38,480
flowed in the right way to the
right players?

1031
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,120
Now, granted, there are long
term issues of just having the

1032
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,040
grids like take a ton more
energy than normal.

1033
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,920
But if you're a solar developer
right now, you love AI because

1034
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,840
you're like, wow, there's so
much demand for my product.

1035
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,600
Like nuclear power coming back
online, Sean is only possible

1036
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:56,880
because there's demand for that
power now.

1037
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:59,840
And.
So the hope is that the long

1038
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,880
term benefit to the environment
and the long term kind of like

1039
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,680
kick start we're giving to all
these forms of clean energy will

1040
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,800
kind of take off and be
ubiquitous once the demand

1041
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,920
starts to level off for
additional accretive

1042
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,400
electricity.
So that's the hope.

1043
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,800
Whether or not it is going to
happen is a fair question, but

1044
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:21,640
it's certainly one.
It's an interesting food for

1045
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:23,240
thought.
Yeah.

1046
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,240
I mean, yeah, the whole, the
whole nuclear energy question

1047
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:30,960
too, I think is, is certainly I,
I think we should be pushing

1048
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,520
more into it and developing more
of it.

1049
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,240
And you know, a lot of countries
out, like I think you highlight

1050
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:39,920
in the book, Germany went and
decommissioned quite a few of

1051
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,440
their nuclear facilities.
And now they're totally reliant,

1052
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:48,440
more reliant on other sources of
renewable energy and natural gas

1053
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,160
type energies.
And you know, that's ends up

1054
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,360
kind of almost being a
geopolitical issue too.

1055
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,120
And then you see, you see
France, they've they've like,

1056
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,640
hey, we're still doing nuclear
and they're doing great.

1057
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,160
They don't really have much of
an impact and they've got

1058
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:05,120
reliability.
And it's like the USI think

1059
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:09,000
needs to double down and, and
make it more, I guess, easier to

1060
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,200
build these facilities.
You know, from a permitting

1061
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,760
perspective, I think that far
too long it's gone down way too

1062
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,080
difficult.
And unfortunately, there's been

1063
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,280
NGOs and people like that, you
know, opposing a lot of these

1064
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,080
activities when in reality they
are a better option than what we

1065
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,240
currently have.
You know, it's really

1066
00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:30,720
interesting.
So do you know Bill McKibben,

1067
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,320
kind of a pretty famous climate
activists who's been doing this

1068
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,400
stuff for like maybe 20 years?
No, I'm not sure I know him.

1069
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:38,280
Well, you know, it's, it's
really interesting.

1070
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,160
I read his most recent book
called Here Comes the Sun, and

1071
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:44,400
he has been an activist.
You know, he's been arrested

1072
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,480
multiple times for protesting.
You know, he is really kind of

1073
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,200
tried to push against the energy
industry for a very long time.

1074
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:52,920
And it was interesting because
he's been doing it for his whole

1075
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,960
life of this moment of
introspection he's having now of

1076
00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:01,000
like, does our activism need to
completely turn on its head?

1077
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,280
Because before it was all about
stop, stop, do not do make sure

1078
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:05,960
it doesn't happen.
Make sure it doesn't happen.

1079
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,600
But now he's like, are we the
ones actually preventing

1080
00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:13,560
environmental progress because
we're the ones, you know, using

1081
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,320
environmental regulations to
prevent the permit of a new

1082
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,520
solar farm or, you know,
concerns about nuclear waste

1083
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,920
preventing the, the, you know,
recommissioning of a, of a, of a

1084
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,360
nuclear power plant.
And he kind of had this moment

1085
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,160
where he's like, wait a second.
Maybe as activists, we need to

1086
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:31,360
be going into communities to
advocate for people to say yes

1087
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:33,280
to these things.
And he talked about an

1088
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,600
interesting nonprofit called
Green Light America that's

1089
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,560
trying to do that as well.
But I think that is one of those

1090
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,320
interesting things as you're
starting to see a lot more

1091
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,480
community push back on land
development for anything.

1092
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,520
But kind of the reality is if we
want to make this clean energy

1093
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,880
transition happen, we do need
land to be used.

1094
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,760
For energy, I mean, there's,
there's a logical balance to

1095
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,320
some of this.
I mean, it's just like fossil

1096
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,800
fuels, like unfortunately, we
can't really go away and

1097
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,760
completely, you know, be
independent or, you know, not

1098
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,360
depending on it.
It's every product we have just

1099
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,720
about.
I mean, it's so much yes, can we

1100
00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:11,640
reduce it?
We should reduce, but the

1101
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,600
reality of we'll ever no, we
can't.

1102
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,960
We have too many things that we,
we rely on it for too many

1103
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:22,800
products and too many existing,
you know, mechanisms and

1104
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,080
machinery and everything else
that's using this products to,

1105
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:30,680
to provide the services that
every American wants and needs.

1106
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,480
So there's a balance here.
There's a balance, I agree with

1107
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,640
you, but it doesn't mean that
means that like it doesn't mean

1108
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,920
we have to keep growing the
fossil fuel environment as we

1109
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,160
both know.
So like, yeah, it's, it's kind

1110
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:44,440
of chipping away at that in
part.

1111
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,120
So it's like you, you look at
the way I kind of think about, I

1112
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:49,320
talk about it in the policy
section of my book.

1113
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:53,200
It's like, well, for us to need
to, to be able to apply clean

1114
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,080
energy to these things, it needs
to be electrified in the first

1115
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,760
place.
And so, you know, so much of

1116
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,160
the, the fight against fossil
fuels is really the fight for

1117
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,440
electrification.
And so, you know, I'm thinking

1118
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,160
about like EVs are a great
example.

1119
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,080
It's like before, if you wanted
to move around, you literally

1120
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,680
had no choice.
You had to combust fuel to get

1121
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:14,480
around for 99% of America.
But now that does not have to be

1122
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,760
the case similarly to generate
heat, you know, I live in

1123
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:21,320
Minnesota, which gets down to
like it was -7�� here this week

1124
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:25,520
in early December.
And, and the, the at the time,

1125
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,600
you know, decades ago, the
thought was, well, you need to

1126
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:31,280
have a gas boiler to, to get
your heat because otherwise

1127
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,080
anything else will freeze.
But you can see above me, here's

1128
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:37,760
an electric heat pump and it is
functioning just fine to give me

1129
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,320
all my feet purely, all my heat,
rather purely from electricity,

1130
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:43,400
even in these really, really
cold temperatures.

1131
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,480
So now like we can start to take
heating into the electric

1132
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,080
electrification journey,
induction ovens, you know,

1133
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,520
there's all these different ways
we can chip at it until we,

1134
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,120
we're only left with like the
really tough stuff remaining,

1135
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,080
which is like jet fuel.
And you know, some of these like

1136
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,960
very high temperature
manufacturing processes.

1137
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,560
But even then, like then you can
look at sustainable fuel, you

1138
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,280
know, food stocks and fuel
stocks like sustainable aviation

1139
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,360
fuel.
So there are transition paths

1140
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,000
out there.
It's just going to take a while,

1141
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:13,920
and it only happens if the
demand for it stays.

1142
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:19,360
I think, I think we will, we'll,
I think we'll keep adding more

1143
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:23,280
of these alternative fuels and,
and be more efficient and have a

1144
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,040
little bit less demand on the
existing fossil fuel type

1145
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:28,160
industry.
But I, I feel like it's going to

1146
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,000
be around for our lifetime.
It's not going away.

1147
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,520
I mean, reality wise, and I
think if we could just still

1148
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:39,760
chip away at clean energy like
solar and some renewables and

1149
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,560
things like that, I think that
will definitely be the way to

1150
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:43,960
go.
And, and we all just need to do

1151
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,800
what we can to, to make an
impact, to think if we do that,

1152
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,560
it'll, it'll change.
And let's virtue signaling a

1153
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:53,280
signal buying is, is a big deal.
Hey, you know, if we look ahead,

1154
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:58,400
what gives you the most hope
about the trajectory of climate

1155
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,680
action globally or do you have
any hope for?

1156
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,520
No, no, I do.
I absolutely do.

1157
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:07,600
It's not like I have it every
single day.

1158
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,120
Just to be very clear, Sean, to
you and anyone else listening,

1159
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:13,160
like being a climate optimist
does not mean putting your head

1160
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,000
in the sand.
It does not mean that every day

1161
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,480
is an optimistic day.
Sometimes you'll see a news

1162
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,760
headline and it'll just totally
gut you, but it's a more of a

1163
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:25,400
kind of on on on average.
On balance, do we have what it

1164
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,160
takes to look for the right
things and the right trends

1165
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:32,400
underneath the noise that we're
not normally going to be exposed

1166
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:33,840
to?
I think you and I both know that

1167
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:38,240
the most news is inherently and
social media is inherently built

1168
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:41,240
for anger and outrage because
that's what gets people engaged.

1169
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:45,360
That's what gets animated.
We don't necessarily hear the

1170
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,040
good things happening.
I'll give a great example.

1171
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,960
When the Inflation Reduction Act
was rescinded, Obviously that's

1172
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,000
not great for the environment.
It would be much better if it

1173
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:55,920
were not.
It would be better to have a lot

1174
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,960
of the subsidies have lasted for
longer, but as everyone is

1175
00:58:59,960 --> 00:59:02,200
saying, well, this is the death
of clean energy in America.

1176
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:06,200
Then you go to the clean energy
ETF, the clean energy index

1177
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,160
funds, the clean energy
investment vehicles, and then

1178
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,520
you see something very different
right now.

1179
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:13,880
It's not necessarily, I think
right at an all time high just

1180
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,520
because the markets generally
pulled back, but it was very

1181
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:19,480
recently clean energy stocks
were at an all time high.

1182
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:23,000
In this current administration,
even with the administration

1183
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,720
pulling back all of these
subsidies for clean energy, it's

1184
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:28,680
still investors are voting with
their dollar.

1185
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,120
They're like, no, this is where
I want the money to go.

1186
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,080
And so, you know, that's really
cool.

1187
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:36,920
And that to me indicates that
there's so much return on

1188
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,040
investment in this space that
the economic engine of

1189
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:43,080
capitalism, which I think a lot
of people will decry very often

1190
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,680
when it comes to the environment
and for good reason.

1191
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,680
But like the engine is starting
to work in favor of

1192
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:53,000
sustainability because the cost
have come down so much other

1193
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,080
than for rooftop solar as we
talked about that this is kind

1194
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,680
of a long term bet that
financiers think is going to be

1195
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:02,280
the future of energy.
So and like that to me is very

1196
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:04,080
optimistic.
I would have been a lot less

1197
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,600
optimistic if like I had seen
the share price of all these

1198
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,920
energy companies go near 0, but
that's not happened.

1199
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:11,800
The opposites happened.
They've gotten more valuable.

1200
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,400
Well, I think, I think you, you
get you kind of point back to

1201
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,800
people buying and investing in
products that, you know, they

1202
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:23,040
really want to see succeed.
And even though maybe a policy

1203
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:27,000
is not in place, but that's the
free market.

1204
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:30,520
And if the free market's going
to push the demand, then it's

1205
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,880
going to move that direction and
it'll naturally happen.

1206
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:37,520
And I think from a
sustainability perspective, most

1207
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,360
companies and industry people
would just say, yeah, well, this

1208
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:44,520
makes sense.
This makes more sense.

1209
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,760
We've got to preserve our our
world, the country we live in.

1210
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:50,480
We want to be more efficient.
We're going to provide for

1211
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,200
future generations.
Most people will go, yeah,

1212
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,440
that's, that's good
conservation, that's good.

1213
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:57,800
You know, environmental policy,
we need to do that.

1214
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,000
And I think that's a no brainer.
And I think that's what we'll

1215
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,360
start to see bigger, you know,
more and more, which is really

1216
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:04,760
good.
I mean, I'm glad.

1217
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,520
Well, can I, can I throw one
last thing on that note because

1218
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:09,920
you mentioned geopolitics
earlier.

1219
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,920
This is also where I'm very
optimistic in a funny way is if

1220
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:16,000
you know, obviously you and I
have been kind of have taken an

1221
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,520
inherent US bias for a lot of
this conversation.

1222
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,720
But let's look to China, Let's
look to the to the people around

1223
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,880
China as well.
Geopolitically, China has every

1224
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,560
incentive to get going on the
clean energy revolution because

1225
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,720
they're a relatively energy poor
country.

1226
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:33,960
And so geopolitically, it's
like, well, do they want to have

1227
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:37,640
their future in the hands of
several petrochemical states who

1228
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,600
could, you know, shut them off
and, and prevent their ability

1229
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,720
to to, I don't know, do
anything?

1230
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,120
Or are they going to invest in
something that is basically a

1231
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:48,400
democratized form of energy that
gives them fungibility?

1232
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:51,280
Same thing in Europe.
You know, now that Russia has

1233
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,720
been at war with Ukraine for
several years, Europe has really

1234
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,280
taken the mantle and said we
want to wean our dependency on

1235
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:02,320
this Petro state away.
And the only reasonable way to

1236
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,400
do that, well, not the only, but
one of the reasonable ways to do

1237
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,960
that is for local generation of
assets and that or energy and

1238
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,760
that's solar.
That's when that's nuclear in in

1239
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,680
France, you know, you look even
at Pakistan and they're like,

1240
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:17,560
well, you know what, we just
have a bad grid sometimes.

1241
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:22,480
And so why not just get my own
solar energy so that I can still

1242
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,400
keep managing my day.
And a lot of the grid

1243
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,480
reliability issues because of
solar plus battery have started

1244
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:30,480
to go away as well.
So there's like all these

1245
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:33,680
interesting geopolitical and
like company or country level,

1246
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:38,320
you know, ramifications for why
this transition is likely going

1247
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:40,880
to be inevitable despite the
kicking and screaming of several

1248
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,360
Petro states, which the US is
currently acting as one.

1249
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,840
Yeah, I mean, it's going to be
interesting to see how this

1250
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:54,240
manifests and changes over time
over the next, you know, 1520

1251
01:02:54,240 --> 01:03:00,720
years or 30 years.
But yeah, I think, I think it,

1252
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:03,080
you know, most people that come
on the show, they're really

1253
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,560
optimistic about, you know, the
future and sustainability and

1254
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,480
doing things that can really
change and make a difference.

1255
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:11,720
And this is great.
I'm glad that you've written

1256
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,880
your book, Charlie.
This is a great book.

1257
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,680
I, I highly recommend everybody
to get a copy of this.

1258
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:20,640
It's AI.
I've highlighted your book in my

1259
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:23,920
newsletter and it's a good
Christmas, good Christmas gift

1260
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,800
for people who want to, you
know, give it away to their

1261
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,280
family members.
But feel free to check it out.

1262
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:34,880
Charlie, wanted to say thank you
for coming on the show and

1263
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:38,360
really appreciate your time.
And I'm sure we'll this will get

1264
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,960
out the next week.
We'll get this out to people and

1265
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:42,400
it'll be fun.
Awesome.

1266
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:44,680
Well, Sean, thank you.
Having me on it was a great

1267
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:46,840
conversation, a lot of fun.
Thanks for letting me get

1268
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,200
animated with you on a couple
topics.

1269
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:54,160
But yeah, no, I, I hope to, I
hope to see some good reviews

1270
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:55,920
start to roll in for you Sean
from.

1271
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,640
Our that's right, that's right,
that's right, that's good.

1272
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,760
Well, I appreciate you.
All right, thanks a lot.

1273
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:02,480
Thanks for listening and
watching the show.

1274
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,040
If you enjoyed the show, then
please share it with your

1275
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,400
friends and Co workers on social
media and tell somebody in

1276
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:10,560
person.
Thanks for being with us, ET

1277
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:11,160
Nation.