Sourgum CEO Joe DiNardi-Mack on Bringing Tech Innovation to Waste and Recycling

0:00 We very much believe that sustainability and profitability have to go hand in hand for it to not be a greenwashing endeavor and for it to actually stick. So we use all of our available data and resources to help separate the shrink out as much as possible to increase the version while also reducing cost. Welcome to the Environmental Transformation Podcast, where we bring you interviews with industry leaders, climate champions, sustainability practitioners, EHS and hazmat professionals making an impact in their businesses today. Each leader solving complex challenges and delivering solutions within their areas of expertise. I'm your host, Sean Grady and thanks for joining us today. Before we jump in, make sure to follow us on your devices and visit my website at www.seankgrady.com and sign up for our newsletter and e-mail announcements.

0:48 Now let's get started. Welcome to the Environmental Transformation podcast. I'm your host Sean Grady and today's guest is Joe Denardi Mack. He is the Co founder and CEO of Sour Gum, a technology driven waste and recycling company transforming an outdated waste industry. Under his leadership, Sargum has grown into a national provider serving thousands of businesses with streamlined, cost effective waste solutions. Joe comes from a family with over a century of experience. He's a fourth generation businessman here in the business in waste recycling and brings a rare combination of deep industry expertise and a tech forward perspective.

1:31 Prior to founding Sour Gum, he operated both collection companies and waste disposal facilities. And he's the founding and he's a founding full stack software engineer at a proptech startup. So, Joe, welcome to the show. Thanks, Sean. Appreciate you having me on. You know, I, you're one of your posts a while back caught me piqued my interest is what I'd say. And I've got a little background in waste management software and, and I thought, you know what, I want to learn more about what Joe's doing and, and what his company's up to because it's pretty exciting. So here we are. You know, let's talk if we could a little bit about your origin story here. Joe, you know you are our 4th generation waste and recycling entrepreneur and you know what made you decide to take this family legacy and reinvent it to with a tech driven company like Sour Gum?

2:26 Yeah, absolutely. So on 4th generation great grandfather started back in 1897 actually with the horse and buggy. OK, you're totally old school there. Oh yeah. And you know, since then, our family's been in the space owning and operating various collection companies, disposal facilities, really affording me the opportunity to work every position in the industry, from the back of the truck to office duties to managing Murph's myself. And I want to take a bit of hiatus from the industry, see what else was out there. So I went to work at a prop tech startup and that's what really opened my eyes, saw the ability to bring software technology into a legacy industry.

3:08 And, you know, it was after my time there that I realized just how outdated this industry I've known my entire life actually was and wanted to kind of bring it into the modern age to improve the experience for both customers who need to get rid of their waste and recycling as well as the haulers operating in the space themselves. So when you, when you, you know, took that little hiatus, you know, is that when you really started to invest in like your programming and, and technology skills? Is that what you focused on when you did that? Yeah. So actually when I joined this, you know, proptic startup, it wasn't even for engineering. It was for more of an operations role. And then you know how startups go, you start picking up different hats.

3:49 And I started picking up that full sack engineering myself. And you know, that's what really made me realize how powerful technology is. Were you always tech savvy as a kid growing up? You strike me as one of the digital natives growing up. So you kind of had it always in your blood, I'm assuming? More than you even know. So my father actually started a software company way back, actually designing custom built systems for different waste and collection companies himself. So I've always had the mix of my mother's side in the actual operating part of the industry, the collection companies, the disposal facilities and my father, you know, bringing that technology in very early on for custom solutions to them. That's great, Great.

4:32 So you taking this time off now you're, you're, you're basically thinking about, you're seeing the problems in the industry. You know, when you look at the waste industry, what stood out to you is broken and, or outdated. And and how did that spark your idea for sour gum? So it was a few things. The industry itself still was running on pen and paper for the large part. Lot of carbon copy on disposal tickets actually going in and out of facilities. Routing was primarily done by hand. Still. I'm not really using software to kind of improve the, you know, different stops along the way as well as there's just a real lack of infrastructure across the entire country.

5:13 You know, you can recycle as much as you want in some parts of the US, but it's just going to end up in a landfill because the infrastructure doesn't exist in those rural parts. And a large part of that is because there's a lack of data. People are really hesitant to go build a brand new facility in certain parts of the US because they don't know how much material they'll actually get in the door to make sure it's actually cost effective and justifiable to build it. Yeah, there's a lot of truth to that right there. I mean, disconnected, not accessible your facilities when you think about your product. Tell me a little bit about how you vision or see this kind of supporting the circular economy.

5:55 Absolutely. So not only are we creating software to help improve the actual operations of different collection companies and improve the experience for those getting rid of their different debris, but we're also ensuring that we're building data across the entire infrastructure. Whether that's AI, image recognition, self reported origin information of the people actually disposing the material themselves. We are pretty much trying to build the operating system for the waste recycling industry to the point where we're collecting enough data to then work with both public and private entities to give them the confidence they need to know what facilities to build to divert the majority of waste that's in their streams and of what size it needs to be to make sure it's an actual profitable endeavor.

6:44 Wow, that's great. I mean, so there had to been a moment where you had this aha moment like, Oh my gosh, this is like what we need. What was that specific moment where you thought we can do this better with technology and that became the catalyst for launching the company? I wouldn't say it was 11 moment necessarily. It was my entire life growing up in the industry, knowing how we operated, seeing all the problems and then maybe multiple aha moments as time went on working at that. Projects are going, Oh my God, why are we entering these tickets manually when we can use AI to read them? Why are we writing this three times in three different systems when we can have it all connected and sync together?

7:29 So it was just uncovering the power of technology along the way and uncovering all the problems and headaches within the industry as well. So you were living, breathing the challenges every day and, and recognizing there's got to be a better way. And it was probably just gnawing at you all the time and you're just constantly thinking about, man, I got to figure out a better way to do this. And and it wasn't like you mentioned that it was all these little aha moments, but it was not like the one big one. But so I, I totally, totally understand that. That's a good summary. So for the listeners you know who haven't really maybe you visited your website, know much about what you guys do talk a little bit like how does this service work? Explain in simple terms you know the the sour gown platform and you know what makes booking waste and recycling services easier of.

8:20 Course so for those who need to get rid of different waste and recycling debris, we've created an Uber or Amazon like platform for them where they can either go online and completely check out themselves. They don't have to interact with anyone. It's a you know modern e-commerce like experience. They can also work with one of our waste specialist as well to help optimize their setup, especially for more enterprise grade clients. From there we're really trying to make it on autopilot. You know every customer no matter their size, gets access to a free online portal for all procurement management. However, we really measure how often they don't go into it. You know, if you're going into the portal and doing things, that means we're not, we're not really doing our job because it should be on autopilot. It should be the last thing on their mind. And it's all made possible because on the supply side where you have over 5000 partners haulers across the US, mostly small local haulers who have great pricing, great service, but really, you know, just lack some of that business development to really get discovered. And we're also equipping them with our proprietary technology to better run their business as well as kind of integrate into our network so that we're taking all these 5000 haulers and almost having them run as one single fleet. And that's where all the magic happens, where, you know, we're improving their routes.

9:36 We're using cameras on the trucks to analyze the streams coming out. Everything we're doing is on the supply side, the heavy lifting to make that remain side experience just as seamless and as, you know, automated as possible. Well, let's let's dive into that a little bit because that's quite interesting. You know, supporting local haulers, you know, waste is such a local business. How does Sour Grim help small independent haulers compete and thrive in that with this new technology model? I mean, are you vetting these vendors? You know, you mentioned cameras on trucks. I mean, are these access or tools that you're providing or are they they buying them and they link in? I mean, talk a little bit about your process here of connecting your your service providers to this infrastructure to make it this Amazon Uber ordering process. So we give our partner callers technology, you know, they don't have to bring in outside packages. We give them the full stack themselves so they only have one turnkey solution that they need.

10:37 We'll also give them free cameras to put on their service vehicles, and that's what helps us get more data about what's actually going on the ground. And then that software helps just improve all aspects of their business, routing and dispatching, time clock management, even billing and charging their customers they received on their own outside of the sour gum network. And then as they use the technology, you know, we get some benefits on our side where we know where the next Sargam order falls into a schedule to provide real time ET as we're seeing the material actually coming out of the cans. So we can analyze that to make improvements in diversion efforts, you know, taking cardboard out of waste streams for example.

11:19 And then we're opening up larger opportunities for them as well. We focus more on enterprise grade clients. So I think people with multiple locations across multiple states who want sour gum because it's a single point of procurement, it's online, it's modern, it's easy. And now we're giving these opportunities to all these small local haulers who can work on the few locations that are within their area. I got it. I got it. So so if you're a small service provider and you want to improve your business operations, basically you can sign up to be a sour gum, you know, supporter or being a, you know, vendor. And and then you can even just book your own projects through sour gum to deliver the service and essentially kind of use you guys as the broker waste hauling business for them. Is that accurate?

12:10 Yeah, that's accurate. So, you know, the way we built the technology is it's not cornered into just the sour gum work. It's designed for all the work with their billing directly not using sour gum at all. This way they're, you know, really modernizing their entire operations because the better they run their operations in total, the better experience we provide to our customers. Gotcha, gotcha. Well that's pretty interesting. I like this. This is a interesting new, I guess, tech forward focus on the service. You know, it's so many of the waste companies, it's all regionalized, right? I mean, you know, it's local, you know, do you have challenges with providing consistent containers, you know, and service pickups with some of these these haulers? And and if you do encounter that, well, what do you do to kind of adjust and and kind of solve those problems? So because they're running on our technology, we do have the ability to measure their service level agreements against what we need our SL as to be.

13:10 So that's kind of how we keep our vendors, you know, in line with what our customers expect. We show them obviously reports and dashboards of how they're performing, what they have to do to kind of improve to stay within the network and stay receiving jobs from sour gum. And then it is obviously very local and regional. So we don't really have too many issues on the SLA side with the haulers. But every time we go into a new market, it's like that chicken and egg problem all over again. You know, we leaned on experience from Uber and Airbnb and other tech forward marketplaces to figure out how to build that supply side network while also building the demand needed to get that supply into the network. Right, right now this is good.

13:54 I mean, there is the time when I was doing software development and overseeing a product and yeah, we had a similar kind of recycling platform where we would companies to put up, you know what they had that for like a recycling market. Hey, I've got, you know, 5000 lbs of this type of material, you may want to bid on that. So it was kind of like an eBay for, you know, waste recycling products and really enjoyed it. But, you know, it was really hard to scale. The former company I was with just really unfortunately wasn't prepared to be a software company. They were more of a consulting company. So they just didn't see the value and the vision that we were, you know, in the trenches, us in the trenches who saw it.

14:35 And so just, it didn't go where we was hoping it would go. But you know, I'm, I'm glad to see, you know, somebody like yourself and your company doing this because I think there's a huge value in it. I mean, people want it simple. They, they want to hit the easy button, right? They want to go and just get on their phone and then make it streamlined and simple and painless and straightforward and, and reliable. And that's, that's sounds like what you're doing. And yeah, when you're when you're, you know, trying to focus on scaling this nationwide, you know, I'm sure you've, you've expanded rapidly across the States and metro areas, you know, but what, what's been the biggest challenge in scaling the business that traditionally has been so regional and operational? Yet that biggest challenge is just every new market. It's that rinse and repeat method of having to go find the supply, find the demand, solve that chicken and the egg every single time.

15:28 Not only that, I grew up predominantly on the East Coast for, you know, waste and recycling operation. So every time we've entered a new region, there's, there's nuances and differences that I'm, you know, having to learn on the fly about how they operate in the waste and recycling industry, weather that's using tandem trailers and now doing like 2 deliveries at once, which is something we are not accustomed to on this side, using more dump trailers instead of the larger containers. Just all these small operational nuances that if you're not very attuned to the industry and willing to continuously learn, it's always going to provide a a new headache and a potential scaling challenge. So what does the sales force look like for you guys? I mean, and you know, and, and talk a little bit about the specific waste types you're you're wanting to service and focus on. So sales are split up into two ways. We either have an inbound motion where people discover us as well as an outbound motion focused more on enterprise level clients.

16:25 We streams, we'll handle everything up to radioactive essentially. So no matter what you're looking to dispose of, our goal is to help you do it in the most sustainable and profitable way possible. You know, we very much believe that sustainability and profitability have to go hand in hand for it to not be a greenwashing endeavor and for it to actually stick. So we use all of our available data and resources to help separate the stream out as much as possible to increase diversion while also reducing cost. Are you focusing on? Are you helping clients manage hazardous waste? Yes, so medical waste and things like that. Oil drums as well. Yep. So, so solvent waste, all that kind of stuff has listed hazardous waste, you know, characteristic hazardous waste, all those waste streams.

17:13 Is your software integrating with E manifest with EPA? Yes. So we work with our partner haulers as well to ensure that everything is up to to code and spec. And we work with them primarily on the hazardous side to make sure that we are in full compliance and building out continuous integrations for every new material stream we get. And so when you talk about those types of services, is it is it kind of like a total waste management service program or is it really just the use of the actual, you know, technology tool? So for getting rid of the hazardous waste, it's more of the use of the technology tool.

17:55 And so we kind of build it out even further to kind of encompass all of the other aspects. We're really relying more on the partnered haulers at that scale, on the hazardous side to handle it in the most sustainable manner possible. OK, OK. I got you. So is the software, is it a license type software or is it really just the use of it through purchasing a service directly like a pickup or a disposal pickup type thing? Is that is it really based on that approach or is it actual an independent software that people can use to track their waste and enter waste volumes and things like that? So on the demand side, it's in tandem with the actual service. So they have to be using the shower gum service to actually get rid of their waste and recycling debris, have access to the platform and all the data because we need to have our partnered haulers actually as the ones performing the service so we can get information from the field coming out of it. Very good.

18:56 And then on the partnered hauler side, they can be in network out of network. Anyone on the supply side can really use the software. So how many you know, like operationally where are you in within the US? Are you primarily East Coast, West Coast or you know where, where are you expanding your business, you know, across the the nation? So we're currently operating in all 50 states within at least one or two major metros in each state. Heavy focus on the eastern half of the US currently in terms of full state coverage by the end of this year though will be in all rural parts of the western half of the US as well. I was reading somewhere that you just made a big move to go into the metro Louisville metro area.

19:43 Tell me about that little project or the effort. Yeah, absolutely. So for that we're already doing some work in that area predominantly like open top dumps rentals for construction projects. We saw the opportunity to then move into that from a geographical standpoint going from the east to the West to go more into the reoccurring waste collection service as well. So for opening a new market like that, it's pretty straightforward. We have those partnered haulers who are already performing that open top dumps rental for us. They also do the reoccurring waste service. So now more it's more of a, you know, demand side motion to get clients on. Using the software to then open up more opportunities to the haulers we already know are vetted and online in that area. Well, let's talk a little bit about the waste disposal aspect of this.

20:34 I mean, are you negotiating big contracts with the big landfill firms out there to, you know, secure the, you know, good pricing? Actually, no. When we first enter a new market, it's only working with the collectors. We're using their current tonnage and rates. And then once we're in a market for about 6 to 8 months, we'll start talking to disposal facilities directly to aggregate that all in. We just need about that 6 to 8 months of data to really hang. Out. Yeah. There you go. OK. All right. All right. That's interesting. That's good to know. You know, I think one of the things I noticed on your website, you there's the sustainability promise and I love the fact that you say you plant a tree for every order, you know, talk a little bit why talk a little bit about why that is important to you to build sustainability into your business, you know, from the very beginning.

21:26 Yeah. So part of it is, you know, my experience in the industry, seeing how broken the system is in terms of improper recycling, where it's ranging from customers not knowing what to put in a bin because it really changes from region to region to again, just that lack of infrastructure throughout the US. It's really something when I started the company, we wanted to to change that. So we have a vision of achieving 0 waste within the waste and recycling industry. Sounds a little paradoxical, sounds like we're putting ourselves out of business, but at the end of the day, we're just trying to change it from going into landfills to more like recycling and upcycling facilities. And again, part of our belief here is sustainable and profitability have to go hand in hand.

22:08 So the beginning we wanted to kind of obsess over the unit economics of it, ensure that as we were building this company that we had that vision in mind throughout every step of the way. And then the plant to tree program is actually to offset the carbon emissions from the service vehicles until those are really like carbon neutral service vehicles. Hello ET Nation, I want to thank you for listening to the podcast. If you're enjoying the interviews we bring you, consider supporting the program by visiting my website at seankgrady.com and buy me a cup of coffee. Proceeds will go towards helping me continue producing timely content and offset production costs. I'd also like to take a moment and recognize a few of our sponsors of the show who have been amazing partners and our ET Nation legends. If you're looking for a drilling and environmental contracting firm to help you delineate the extended contamination at your site, then look no further than Cascade Environmental. Cascade has over 37 offices across the country and offers a huge range of environmental and geotechnical drilling, site characterization, and remediation services. With their huge fleet of equipment nationwide coverage, Cascade is a great choice to support your environmental and infrastructure needs.

23:22 To learn more, check out their website site@cascade-env.com. That's cascade-env.com. Hey, are you looking for an equipment rental company to help you with your next wastewater remediation or waste management project? E Tank is the only environmental equipment rental company in the industry that offers 100% guaranteed certified clean temporary liquid storage tanks at no additional cost. This protocol gives Peace of Mind for the previous customer by limiting their downstream liability as well as the future customer by preventing any cross contamination for all of their rental tanks. E Tank also runs a one-of-a-kind complete maintenance program for all rental items including liquid tight roll off containers, fluid transfer pumps and filtration items. The next time you are presented with an environmental challenge, call E Tank to come up with the solution for your problem. I want to thank one of our sponsors, Wastelink. Wastelink is the all in one software platform transforming how environmental professionals manage waste, connecting generators, service providers, and disposal facilities in a way that is simple, connected, and transparent. Your platform helps streamline everything from waste profiling and routing to inventory management and billing, giving you the tools you need to operate more efficiently and reduce cost.

24:50 Whether you're a generator looking for better options or a service provider seeking greater efficiency, Waste Link has you covered. If you're ready to take control of your waste management processes and optimize your business, visit wastelink.com to schedule a demo today. Yeah, talk about the service vehicles. Are there, are there things you're doing with your service providers to, you know, I guess encourage, you know, either battery operated transport, CNG transport or is it just basically, hey, we, we're going to, we know that we're going to have a hit on the emissions because we have to get the waste somewhere. So this is part of the the pledge. So it's really part of the pledge right now. You know, we do have financing opportunities for our partner haulers to take advantage of just the current state of the industry is electric vehicles for, you know, garbage trucks work great in like very tight natural areas. But once you start going to other parts of the US where they have to travel greater distances, you know, most haulers don't want to adopt them because of the amount of charging time and the amount of extra work has to be involved in it.

25:57 So for those haulers, we help them by improving the efficiency of their routes to also help cut down carbon emissions and reduce fuel costs as well. What type of partnerships are you developing with recycling firms that are actually doing the sorting and the repurposing of these types of products that you're managing through Sourgom? I'm just curious of what that looks like on your side. So right now those partnerships look like getting them more tonnage in the door and then helping them clean up the streams that come in because we can actually see the material of from every location when it gets dumped in the truck or the contamination levels and help that customer improve their stream. So it's a cleaner stream. And then working with our collecting partners and disposal facility partners, we're getting cleaner material in greater volume to these facilities.

26:47 And then later down the road, we'll also start integrating our software into the facilities themselves. Seems like a, a good opportunity to help provide, you know, more data and waste volumes into that type of a business model. And do you ever envision yourselves managing and operating recycling facilities through this this business model that you have? I don't think you own any facilities now, right? You just you just have software. Just have software. We'll stay as a software company, but tie in and create greater and greater partnerships with the facilities or those who want to build facilities because again, we can provide them with the data needed to kind of improve those operations, ensure they're building facilities of the appropriate size for every given region as well.

27:34 Got you. That's makes sense. OK, You know, I know managing a startup has got to be challenging and a lot of times you're on shoestring budgets and you're always wondering where is the next dollar coming from to help us get to the where we got to be or where we want to go, where our Rd. maps leading us. You know, when we talk, when you talk about funding and growth of of sour gum, you know, you recently closed a 12 and a half million dollar Series A fund, which is fantastic. I'm sure you guys were like, yes, this is great. How does that funding change the game for Sour Gum's growth and product road map? OK. So that funding allows us to really double, triple down on our investments in our technology stacks, improving the software for our partnered haulers, outfitting more and more with cameras, increasing more of our AI and automation throughout that stack, all the name of kind of 10X ING the customer experience and increasing landfill diversions. So kind of unlike your previous company, you know, we're just doubling down on the actual technology cuz that's a bet we're willing to take to really transform this industry. Yeah, absolutely.

28:39 Yeah. You need that investment, you know that that's great to hear. I think it's, it's, it's always comforting to know you've got a little funding background and your support from investors talk a little bit too. If you could, Joe, what does your development team look like? I mean, is it, is it US based? Is it, how many developers do you have? You know what's What's this look like for you on the back end? So we're currently at a 12 person engineering team and growing all US based in fact, all in our office in Jersey City, NJ as well. Because how nuanced this industry is, We really wanted to make sure that they were experiencing it, hearing the operating pains of other people on the front lines, you know, really kind of embracing the entire industry.

29:21 That's that. I think that's great, having your tech team right there. You can walk them down the hall and say, hey, this is what's going on. I need to solve this problem like, can you help me figure out a solution to do this? You know, that is so powerful and I think it's important because it really helps scale the speed of scaling and fixing problems and a product is that's key. Oh. Yeah, there's nothing like someone running in with their hair on fire saying we need to fix this. It's not working. Fix it. Now someone's trying to order. Oh, yeah, no, I got it, man.

30:03 That's great. That's good. Well, in the future of waste Tack, I mean, you know, if we Fast forward 10 years from now, how do you see technology transforming the waste and recycling industry? And what role do you see Sourgon playing in the future? Right. So we see sourgum kind of being that operating system beneath the entire industry to help it run in a very systemized manner. So, you know, right now the US is very fragmented. The way different regions operated are drastically different sometimes from one another even on the types of material they'll accept into the same type of recycling facility. You know, we see data really being the main driver across this entire industry, real time information coming out of what's getting generated on sites to, you know, sending the proper collection company to actually pick it up to then integrating into the disposal facilities and all the way down to the mill. There should be data across the entire chain so that we can clean up the material streams as much as possible and increase diversion rates as much as possible. All the name of also profitability to save people money.

31:11 So 10 years, you're seeing you you. You think that you'd like to see Sour Grum be that main platform driver to with all that data for across the country? That's exciting, that's ambitious. I think, I mean, best of luck on that. I hope that works out because I mean, that's really interesting. I like that concept. And you know what, you need goals like that because I think that's where, you know, entrepreneurs are growing their business and you know, talk a little bit if you could about the challenges of starting your company. When did you started this company? What 20/20/2019? What was the start of this firm? It is so we started Sour Gum in 2022. 2022, OK. So yeah, you're three years in.

31:54 Yeah, but prior to that my my Co founder is actually my cousin. We had a small physical company, you know, running roll off trucks and front end trucks in 2019. We started with the name of wanting to bring technology into the space. We were just experimenting with different business models essentially along the way. A lot of trial and error to see what would work, what wouldn't work. And then in about late 20/20/20, I'm sorry 2021 we landed on what's our goings today as a business model and that's when we pivoted, sold off all the assets raise that first round of. Funding. We'll talk a little bit about that process of raising your first round of funding. What was that like for you guys? The first round was difficult.

32:35 You know, essentially we had a moon shot vision. We were two young kids from the waste and recycling industry. Not really a lot of experience from, you know, the technology sector, let alone, you know, venture backed companies. So it was a lot to get someone to to take that first risk on us. But you know, luckily it's kind of that snowball effect. Once you get the first one in, it starts getting easier and easier every subsequent 1, so long as you know you're proving that the model actually works along the way well. What's been the advisory support you've been receiving from the the these investment companies? Well, yeah, our investors and our partners have been phenomenal, A huge resource really, you know, providing us it's expertise in how to actually scale a technology and software company, not just a, you know, physical operating company, which is what our background has been in.

33:30 You know, everything from what types of positions we need to hire to how to think about, you know, market health to opening doors to some larger clients. They've been just a wealth of resources. That's great. That's fantastic. I mean, yeah, you need a group of people to help you with that. Now, I'm assuming you guys got a small, small board of directors or a board that helps you grow this. What's that look like for you guys? It's a nice lean board, three formal board members and then three additional advisors, so it's been great to just have people around the room who we can really lean on. Yeah, no, that's that's fantastic. Well, when you talk about leadership and these lessons that you're learning along the way as a founder in such a traditional industry, what has surprised you the most in this journey in these the short three years of growing this product? You know, what advice would you give other entrepreneurs trying to modernize an old school business? So what's really surprised me is I thought I knew every part of this industry like the back of my hand, but it was really only the Northeast I knew.

34:37 So every new region, it was a continuous learning experience on how to kind of adapt and change for them. Anyone who's really starting to start a business in these legacy industries, I, my advice would be really you got to learn it, you got to experience it, you got to live it. There's only so much you can do from reading your second hand experience and you got to remember you're walking into an industry that's existed for a long time. There's been people operating in it. You have to have a certain amount of appreciation for those who've kind of forged the path already and have to really be able to speak their language and understand their pains and what they've been through if you want to really help them and improve the industry overall. Yeah, right.

35:17 No, absolutely. I mean, when it comes to leadership, who are you relying on? Who, who, who are you leaning into to help you, you know, kind of gain this inside knowledge of certain things? I mean, your 4th generation, is it your, is it your family? Is it other, you know, connected industry leaders? Talk a little bit about what you're doing and, you know, trying to pick up, pick the brain of some other leaders to help you grow. Yeah. So as we've been growing, you know, I've been kind of expanding the network, started relying heavily on my family at the onset on how to, you know, really build and scale a company. Again, Northeast focus that that got us so far. And then as we brought in our investors, not only have they been great, but they've also been opening doors to other executives who have been through this path three times over. Have startups have run and scaled businesses they've been kind of opening the doors to to speak to people who have already forged ahead in different industries? That's great.

36:14 So are you guys getting requests from a lot of other interested firms that are like, hey, we need your product. What's what's, what's the been the response of the industry so far with for with sour gum and your platform? Yeah. So the first two years, just definitely a lot of us knocking on doors, going out ourselves. But recently in the last eight months, our inbound funnels have really kind of increased. And now that the word's gotten out of it, a lot more people are interested in our product and services and coming to us. Are you promoting, you know, I guess at conferences, trade shows, how are you getting the message out aside from just, you know, the traditional maybe typical social media and or your your website?

36:57 Been going to a lot of trade shows and conferences in the last eight months as well. You know, now that we've secured this Series A round of funding, it's a lot more about getting the word out, going across the country, being in person, really talking to people. That's great. That's fantastic. Well, I really appreciate all the, the good stuff that you're doing and I appreciate the time you're spending with me today. And our listeners, you know the, we call it the ET nation here. They, they, they listen a lot. They, they call in, they're responding, you know, this, this is a waste and recycling is a central part of, of the industry. It's, you know, it's not just though maybe P Foss or some other time, you know, topic that we cover, but waste recycle, recycling is huge.

37:41 Digital technology and innovation is, you know, very interesting component of the industry and I'm glad to see you guys leaning in on it. Appreciate all the work you're doing, Joe. What's the best way for a listener who doesn't know much about Sour Grom to connect with you guys, learn more about you, and even maybe connect personally with you? Yeah, absolutely. Best way to connect is, you know, hello@sourgum.com. If you want to reach out, also visit us@sourgum.com. And, you know, I'm happy to, you know, speak to anyone who's, you know, looking to run a startup themselves and kind of pay forward what others have kind of taught me. Well, that's fantastic, Joe. Well, Joe, best of luck with the, the business. And as you're, you're growing it and scaling and congratulations on your current success three years and what you've done and accomplished already is, is fantastic. It's amazing.

38:32 And really, really enjoy your journey so far. So thanks for coming on the show and we'll, you know, we'll keep in touch over the course of the next, you know, several months, I'm sure and, and see where your guys are going. Sounds great, Sean. I really appreciate you having me on today. You bet. It's a great, great product. Thanks a lot. Thanks for listening and watching the show. If you enjoyed the show, then please share it with your friends and coworkers on social media and tell somebody in person. Thanks for being with us, ET Nation.