Implementing safe drinking water policy for PFAS & Lead Pipes - Alan Roberson, Director of the ASDWA

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Affordability, they had
blackened Peach to a national

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cost compliance study looked at
their assessment of the rates at

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different system sizes.
And for a system of turn 50

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people, you're going to see
water rate increases annually of

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$500,000 a year.
And and that can have a real

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impact on a real community.
Welcome to the Environmental

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Welcome to the Environmental
Transformation Podcast.

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I'm your host, Sean Grady, and
today's guest is Allen

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Robertson.
He is the Executive Director of

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the Association of State
Drinking Water Administrators or

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better known as ASWASDWA.
The AASDWA members, they are the

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state and territorial drinking
water agencies are Co regulators

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under the Safe Drinking Water
Act with the Environmental

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Protection Agency.
He has over 34 years of

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experience in the development of
drinking water policy and

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federal and state drinking water
regulations.

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Prior to him starting at the
ASDWA in 2017, he worked in the

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worked for the American Water
Works Association in Washington,

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DC and he was there for a 25
years.

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So, you know, it's safe to say
Alan has been a veteran in water

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and, and drinking water agency
support and then I guess the

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regulatory policy development
for many, many years.

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He currently is a board member
of Fairfax Water Board director.

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He's been there since 2009.
So, goodness, that's been a

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long, long run there.
He's the treasurer, chairman of

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the Water Quality and Supply
Committee.

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And he also is an egg jump
professor, professor at Johns

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Hopkins Bloomberg School of
Public Health and teaching

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drinking water policy classes
there.

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So, John Allen, thanks for
coming on the show.

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Yeah.
Well, thanks for inviting me,

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Sean.
I'm looking forward to our

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conversation today.
Yeah, this has been good because

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I was your name popped up to me
when I was reading the EPA rule

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and and you were quoted in there
and I was like, ah, well, you

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know, let's connect with Alan
and see if there's an

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opportunity to get some insights
from the, the regulatory

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administrators that are, you
know, kind of basically left

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with implementing these rules
and get his take on on what is

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being proposed.
And, and also the challenges

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that the agencies currently face
with implementing the existing

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current rule for P Foss that's
out there.

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So let's dive into that.
But before we do, could you give

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us a little more background on,
you know, the association that

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you represent?
What's the mission?

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How do you help these state
agencies and and you know what,

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what, what are you involved
with?

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Yeah, our mission is really to
be the the national boys for the

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state agencies.
And so every state has one.

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I, I live in Virginia, Virginia
Department of Health, across the

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river, Maryland Department of
Environment.

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And so we, we kind of do three
different things.

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We keep an eye on everything
that's going on in DC and kind

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of curate the news and say, hey,
this is what's important you

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need to know about this.
There's a lot of things that go

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on in DC that are interesting
but may not impact that agency

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directly.
Then we also work with those

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agencies to collect data and
information and feed it into EPA

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as they're developing the rules.
And then even after the rules

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finalize, there's guidances and
other things that they work on

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that.
I just got off a call on lead,

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sort of another big topic on
implementation guidances for

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lead.
And then the third thing that we

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do is broker information
transfer between the states.

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So we'll have we had a state's
only webinar on Monday about

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nitrate.
Nitrate's a big issue across the

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country, particularly in areas
where there's heavy row crop

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agriculture.
We had a discussion on PFAS what

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what we might consider saying or
doing in regards to EP as recent

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actions considering that.
So we really focus on that

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information transfer.
We've started a lot of teams

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channels so the states can talk
to each other electronically.

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In the old days it was always,
you know, conference calls or

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you post it on a form.
Now with some of the new tools,

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we're trying to broker the
states asking each other for the

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questions because they may ask a
question and none of our people

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here are going to know it.
But oh, the guy in Indiana ask a

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question and the guy from
Montana can answer it and that

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is helpful for them to talk.
We just serve as the broker on

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that information exchange.
That's interesting thing is kind

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of information out, information
in, and then information in

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between.
Well, that's interesting.

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That's a great way to
collaborate amongst the agencies

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as as those teen channels.
And yeah, technology is a good

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thing in that scenario, right?
Exactly.

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I mean, what we're doing here
now, it's just a lot easier than

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what it was 5 or 10 years ago.
Yeah, 100 percent, 100% it is.

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Well, you know, you, you.
So the EPA last month came out

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with a position on the new
proposed rule of of the P Foss

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drinking water rule, which were
they want to pull back some of

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the MCLS for four of the main
chemicals that they had

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previously listed in that are
currently in play, the shorter

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chain P Foss.
And then they wanted to keep the

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2P fo Apfos a long chain
chemicals in play at 4 parts per

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trillion.
And then the main thing that

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seemed to be besides the the
pulling back and wanting to re

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evaluate the four and maybe
establishing an alternative

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number.
I don't know.

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But I think that's what they're
planning to do, but was to

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extend the the time for
compliance of drinking water

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utilities to meet the the
upgrades that they need to

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achieve to meet these numbers.
And I was curious, you know,

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what's the ASDWAS position on
how, how, how are they going to

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go around about, you know,
supporting either one, the

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agencies that are, you know, it
left with implementing, you

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know, a potential new rule like
that or even just dealing with

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the current one, right.
And then, you know, how does

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that affect our our Public
Utilities and, and, and you

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know, I guess affected
community.

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So thoughts there, if you could
share your ideas there, Alan?

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Yeah, I mean we're still in the
process of trying to develop a

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concrete position.
But in general the the longer

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construction time frame,
compliance time frame in in in

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many cases it is going to be a
good thing.

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Because you know, if your system
is just starting to figure out

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your P fast problem, you've got
to do the bench testing, pilot

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testing, figure out what
technology you're going to use,

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do the plants and specs, get
those reviewed and approved, get

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the money and and then build it.
And you know, to be honest, in

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the normal five year timeline,
that's pretty tight.

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So what would happen in the past
is the system in this in the

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state would develop a compliance
agreement saying, hey, you're

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making progress here, interim
milestones you need to hit.

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And you know, if you're a few
years late, you've met all these

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in term limestone milestones,
you can tell your customers

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you're making progress, it just
takes time.

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And so you know what, what it
looks like this wouldn't allow

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essentially that to happen
without these individual

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agreements.
That being said, there's we've

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already heard discussions on
both sides.

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They want to push as many people
as possible to get it in as soon

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as possible for public Health
Protection.

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So that's the dialogue that
we're sort of currently working

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through now.
There's also a question about

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the other four that are going
through this reconsideration

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process, particularly Gen.
X has some concern and that it's

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considered a replacement for the
older P Fo, P Foss, the two more

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common.
And the concern is if you pull

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it back as more manufacturers
and users switch off from P FO

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and P Foss, we'll see more Gen.
X out in the environment.

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Now, I'm, I'm not a health
effects expert, Sean.

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I'm, I'm a civil engineer.
And so I I while having worked

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in the field for a while and I
can read health effects

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information.
It's not my sweet spot, so I'll

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read it.
And so I can't, you know, it's

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Gen.
X have less adverse health

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effects than P fo P Foss.
That's my understanding.

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But how much and if it becomes
more widespread how big of an

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issue it may or may not become.
That's the kind of stuff that's

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just outside my expertise.
So we're working through that

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debate.
I mean, I we there the press

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release of EPA came out with was
a little thin on details and

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that's all they're really going
to have until they propose the

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rule these changes they they
hope by the end of the year.

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So what is the What role will
the ASDWA play in providing

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feedback to EPA during the
development of the proposed P

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Foss drinking water standards?
One thing we're trying a little

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better handle on is whether you
know, if they maintain the two

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MCLS for P fo and P Foss and and
don't move forward with the

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hazard index, has that changed
the number of systems have to

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put in treatment?
Right now we think it's a small

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percentage, but we'd like to get
more granularity.

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So we're, we're thinking we may
survey the States and the

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information they have and a lot
of them have already done the

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math on, Oh yeah, it'll be 3% or
8% less that would put in

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treatment.
So it's not a big number.

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It'd be nice to have more
granularity and then if there's

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any more useful information that
states have found out in the

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process of already working
through, you know, what was in

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put in place last year, we'll
pass that along to EPA to help

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them in the formulation of the
proposal.

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So from our point of view, it's
how do we make, we call it

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implementable?
How do we make the rule

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implementable?
Easiest implement primarily for

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state agencies, but typically
that also means it's easier for

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the water systems to implement.
So because you kind of have this

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triangle of EPA and the the
utilities of the states, what's

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good for the states is typically
good for the water systems as

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far as making a rule
implementable, understandable

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00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,840
people can figure out what's
going on it it it's helpful to

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have that so.
Hello ET Nation, I want to thank

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00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:13,960
you for listening to the
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If you're enjoying the
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So it's safe to say currently

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00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:56,880
that the EPA hasn't consulted
with a SDWA on their proposed

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00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,760
rule approach to the new, you
know, repeal or pull back of

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00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,720
some of this currently that they
haven't really engaged you, you

242
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,040
guys.
But we've had conversations and

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00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:08,960
they're willing.
They're, they're, we've kind of

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00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,880
this dialogue saying, hey, we're
going to try and figure out some

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00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,280
information and, and bring it
in.

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00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,040
And they say, OK, that's, that's
fine.

247
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,600
They just haven't we, if we had
the dialogue, they're not

248
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,520
exactly sure, you know, some of
the details about what we're

249
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,600
what they're thinking about.
And, and we're in the same boat.

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00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:27,480
We're not exactly sure on the
details.

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00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,240
So it's one of those things
where we don't want to have a

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00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:32,960
conversation and appear
clueless.

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00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,080
So we're doing our homework to
try and figure out, OK, we'd

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00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,280
like to see this, We'd like to
see that one.

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00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,880
This one, not so much.
And there may be some things

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00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,640
where our folks are split.
And so we do this.

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00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,160
Sometimes we say, hey, several
states think this and other

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00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,840
states think that and present
both sides and let them decide.

259
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,800
That's kind of the role of the
agencies making some of those

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00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:59,720
tough decisions.
So does the association do, I

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00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,560
guess a lot of data mining and
data analytics on a lot of the,

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00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,280
you know, like the UCMR data
that's coming through the, the

263
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,120
various drinking water utilities
across the country in each state

264
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:16,280
and assessing, you know, where
the impacts and, and are, are

265
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,880
being identified and, and maybe
making recommendations or

266
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,320
identifying like the severity
of, you know, potential exposure

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00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,600
of P Foss in the, in the
drinking water, you know,

268
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:29,960
operations or communities out
there.

269
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,240
I mean, what are you guys doing?
Anything in that space?

270
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,320
Yeah, we're just starting to get
into that.

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00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,720
We haven't.
We hired a couple young people

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00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,880
that last fall, September and
they're starting to figure out

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00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,000
how to do that.
What we're trying to, what we're

274
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,440
finding so far is that in
general, you really have to work

275
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,000
on what questions you want to
ask.

276
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,480
You know, it's easy to like kind
of get lost in the data.

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00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,800
And So what are you trying to
assess?

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00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,240
And this is one question I
mentioned earlier, which is OK,

279
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,440
If you just maintain those two
MCLS at 4 parts per trillion and

280
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,960
take away the others, how much
of the pie are you taking away

281
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,160
with the other four?
And, and that I think it won't

282
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,120
be more like scraping.
We'll just ask him and they'll

283
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,640
tell us what the numbers are and
we'll compile them.

284
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,320
That we're, we're not really
like that analytic shot.

285
00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,160
We're more, we're better at
asking the states for the

286
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:32,080
information to compiling that
and then turning that into

287
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,280
information.
That's really more what we do.

288
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,000
But you never know.
Again, like you said,

289
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,360
technology's changing.
The tools are changing.

290
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,800
We got these two young people
that are not that are better at

291
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,560
it than I am.
Sure, sure.

292
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,520
Yeah.
I mean, when you look at the,

293
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:52,800
the proposed rule, you know,
having the two older long chain

294
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,720
PFOS chemicals listed as as the
potential new targets.

295
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,880
And again, everyone listening,
keep in mind the current rule

296
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,160
still is in place.
It's not being, you know,

297
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,200
changed anytime soon yet.
There's a whole process here.

298
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,400
But if we just, you know, played
out the, the scenario, so to

299
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:17,480
speak, if they keep the, the
two, you know, long chain ones

300
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,640
and they, they maybe reduce or
don't even have levels for the

301
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,800
other 4.
You know, I, I mean, I would be

302
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,480
surprised if they didn't have
levels, but you just say those

303
00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:30,600
if they didn't and they had
utilities only testing for those

304
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,480
two long ones.
Well, what about all the

305
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,160
chemicals that could be missed
or not being evaluated?

306
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,920
That's do actually have health
effects right in communities?

307
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,760
And it it would be interesting
to know which communities have

308
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,920
more of those shorter chain hits
then say these two larger long

309
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,760
chain ones, because those that's
got a different, you know,

310
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:56,760
impact to those communities to
that.

311
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,600
So I think it's not a.
Question, right, Right.

312
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:02,960
Yeah.
If particularly if you're in a

313
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,120
community like in Cape Fear,
North Carolina, where you're

314
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:09,680
downstream of a kimura facility
and they found some high levels

315
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,200
of Gen.
X, so they figured that out

316
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,600
early on and I put in treatment.
But you're right.

317
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:20,160
The question is how many others
are out there that aren't as

318
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,680
well known as Cape Fear?
Yeah, right.

319
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,360
And it just seems like, you
know, a large data analytics

320
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:33,520
type exercise of the agency's
data that's coming through could

321
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,760
really help disseminate or
decipher what's really going on

322
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,800
across the country.
Because, you know, I think that

323
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,920
should play into from the
science side of things where the

324
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,040
big impact areas are that we're
seeing.

325
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,360
I agree with you.
It's again, it's something that

326
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:53,400
we we might do again.
We're just, we just had our

327
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,880
first conversation on Monday on
kind of what do we think about

328
00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,240
that and we'll need more
conversations by this technical

329
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,440
group that'll feed into our
Board of directors for final

330
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:04,760
positions.
Sure it's.

331
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,040
Going to take some time.
I think we have some time, but

332
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,320
not a lot, you know, EEP wants
to propose by the end of the

333
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,200
year.
I'd like to get some input into

334
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,840
the agency before that to help
them formulate their thinking.

335
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:24,440
What might be the proposal?
So I, I noticed on the website

336
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,440
that you guys also have an
initiative to support maybe the

337
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,080
laboratory capacity needed for
treatment of P Foss or for

338
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,080
testing the P Foss.
And and maybe you could speak a

339
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,600
little bit about what you guys
are thinking in that space of

340
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,000
you know, is there enough
testing capacity in the in the

341
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,560
industry to support all this
testing needs needs to be done?

342
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,000
Yeah, we're kind of focusing on,
on the the state labs, the ones

343
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,720
that they're, they're every
state's required to have a lab,

344
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,320
how big the lab is and how much
compliance sampling they do

345
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,720
varies across the state with
there's only a few states that,

346
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:01,120
that do all the compliance
sampling.

347
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,160
I think so far so good that that
the commercial labs have

348
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,280
expanded their capacity for UCMR
5 and and that will help, but

349
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,040
you know UCMR 5 only hit
systems.

350
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,880
At above 10,000.
And so there's still a large

351
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:23,880
number that'll be below.
I think they'll be some, you

352
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,640
know, supply chain issues when
everyone has to do their initial

353
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,800
monitoring initially.
But I think you're also going to

354
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,520
find, you know, a fair number of
systems that aren't going to

355
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,880
have it.
And so, you know, there'll be

356
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,280
some supply chains on that first
go round, but then for ongoing

357
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,120
compliance set when it should be
all right.

358
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:47,120
So in that process, Alan, from a
state's perspective, and they

359
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:54,760
have a state lab, you know, I
have an experience with Indiana

360
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,560
and they had a state lab and,
and, and, you know, I think that

361
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:02,400
the, the technical equipment
needed to actually achieve a

362
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,440
certain, you know, detections
wasn't quite up to snuff

363
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,240
compared to the, the, you know,
the industry type laboratories

364
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,960
out there.
And, and I think why wouldn't

365
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,920
the states just defer to, you
know, the, the local industry

366
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:23,800
labs and instead of relying on
their own labs, I think there's

367
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,760
good argument that that would be
a better approach to, because

368
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,440
they're already maintaining the,
you know, these testing limits

369
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,720
now.
Yeah, and it's a tough, I agree

370
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,400
with you.
I mean, I think, I think some

371
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:41,240
states will maintain the the to
maintain privacy, they have to

372
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,760
have some lab.
But I actually just looked at

373
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,880
the requirements.
It doesn't say they have to do

374
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,240
everything they have to be able
to do.

375
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,880
They they cannot do zero, you
know, they have to be able to do

376
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,840
basics.
And so most of them can do the

377
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,240
easier pesticides and VOC's and.
Oh yeah.

378
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:02,880
Right, Yeah, I think that will
still count.

379
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,000
And I just think just a few are
probably going to go.

380
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,760
I think they're going to let the
commercial labs, there's so much

381
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,000
not only just the the the
equipment, but it's also the

382
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,120
clean, the clean sampling and
analysis techniques.

383
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,400
You know, you've got to use
special gloves.

384
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,480
You can't wear sunscreen or make
it.

385
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,800
There's all kinds of stuff
because the very low levels you

386
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,880
can have contamination pretty
easy.

387
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,040
Yeah.
Yeah, a lot of states would

388
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,560
rather just not deal with it and
let the commercial guys do it.

389
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,080
Well, I think that might be a
smart way to do it.

390
00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:37,560
You know, EPA keeps updating and
providing new guidance on the

391
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,960
test methods that are out there.
So there was a while there that

392
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,200
the test methods were not really
formalized and and now that now

393
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:46,960
they are, they're getting better
and better.

394
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,000
So that's good and that's really
good.

395
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:55,440
So what are some of the concerns
you are hearing from state

396
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,880
regulatory agencies regarding
the feasibility and cost and

397
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,600
timeline of implementing like
even this just the current P

398
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,680
Foss rule?
Yeah, Yeah.

399
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,400
It really boils down to probably
two big issues.

400
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,880
One, we talked a little bit
about that initial round of

401
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,520
monitoring, you know, making
sure that that these smaller

402
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:22,880
systems that are using a
commercial lab know how to

403
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,080
contract with the commercial lab
for this kind of analysis and

404
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,600
can do the sampling, do the
clean sampling techniques.

405
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,920
You know, so that that's one
issue.

406
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,040
And then the bigger issue is for
the, I'd say just a few thousand

407
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,600
because we don't know exactly
they have to put in treatment

408
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,920
that long timeline for pilot
test, bench testing, pilot

409
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,320
testing plants and specs and,
and getting the money and

410
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,760
building it.
And then and then longer term,

411
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,840
probably the third piece is
operation and maintenance.

412
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,440
And if you put in carbon, you're
going to have to change the

413
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:01,560
carbon every, I don't know, 9 to
18 months, depending on where

414
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,120
you're at.
And that while you may be able

415
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:10,240
to get SRF money or other
financing for the capital, you

416
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,360
should be paying for your
operation and maintenance

417
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:14,800
through rates.
And so there's going to be a lot

418
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,760
of smaller systems that are
going to see real rate

419
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,800
challenges and affordability
issues when you have to put in

420
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,440
that treatment.
Now how that plays out in the

421
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,720
next decade, you could have more
and I wouldn't necessarily call

422
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:34,160
it consolidation, but more where
larger entities, counties may,

423
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,360
may run a water authority that
has 20 systems, you know, and,

424
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:42,840
and have a base rate across the
entire county.

425
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,560
We have a county here in
Virginia.

426
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,360
It's like the 4th county out as
the suburbs go out and they have

427
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:52,640
a county water and sewer
authority and they've got, I

428
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,640
think 22, you know, PW s s and
they're scattered.

429
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,080
They have one edge.
It's the suburban.

430
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,560
The rest of it gets more rural
and they just scatter it.

431
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,200
And because they have the
economic development of that one

432
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,920
side that's, you know, typical
suburban.

433
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,720
They've got trained operators.
The stuff's all interconnected.

434
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,640
The guys have iPads where they
can, we went and saw one of

435
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,400
their little microfiltration
plants and the guy had an iPad

436
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,320
and was showing us what he could
do on it really new with stuff.

437
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:30,200
And and so you may see more of
that consolidated system

438
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,280
operation to be able to generate
the revenues for the ongoing

439
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,040
operation and maintenance.
That's really the kicker is the

440
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,400
how those costs can impact rates
and of great affordability

441
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,600
issues.
Yeah.

442
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:52,080
And then what is the ASDWAS
position on, I guess, I guess

443
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,400
the fairness, so to speak, in
implementing the rule for, you

444
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,520
know, ratepayers and, and being
a voice for the community

445
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,040
because they're the ones that
didn't cause the problem.

446
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,480
It's a, it's an industrial
discharge or somewhere.

447
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,920
You know what?
Where do you guys sit in that

448
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,560
space?
Because it feels like, you know,

449
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,800
there needs to be an advocate
and, and you know, for the

450
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,600
little guy, right it and it
doesn't and, and they're not

451
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,920
getting the support.
It feels like that I guess they

452
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,200
would expect or want to see from
these agencies across the board.

453
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,360
And, and I'm just curious what
your guys thoughts are there

454
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:34,280
and, and how you guys are
helping communities in that

455
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,720
space.
Well, I'd say naturally we're

456
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,560
playing the role of Switzerland
and staying pretty neutral, you

457
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,520
know, but personally, I
understand that the, the, again,

458
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:50,680
my previous employer at AWA, we,
we ran into the affordability

459
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,840
problem several years ago with
arsenic, cause arsenic doesn't

460
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,240
impact as many systems and it's
naturally occurring, which

461
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,320
actually makes it more
challenging than PFAS because

462
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,440
they're, they're man made,
somebody else made them.

463
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,000
But the treatment for it is
expensive to put in, expensive

464
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,360
to replace some of the same
issues.

465
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:15,160
So in the early 2000s, we are
grappling with that right now.

466
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,400
I'd say we're looking toward the
utility associations, AWBA and,

467
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,800
and, and ammo and others.
AWBA has litigation on the

468
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,440
current PFAS rule and a lot of
it has to do with exactly this

469
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,400
issue, you know, the
affordability they had blackened

470
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,480
Peach to a national cost
compliance study looked at their

471
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,000
assessment of the rate at
different system sizes and for a

472
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,000
system of and I, I mean, I have
the numbers exactly right.

473
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,320
Turn 50 people, you're going to
see water rate increases

474
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,480
annually of, you know, 500 or
$1000 a year and and that can

475
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,280
have a real impact on a real
community.

476
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:59,160
So we've kind of relied on on
rely it's not exactly the right

477
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,120
word.
We're keeping informed through

478
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:04,600
what they're doing that that I
still keep in contact with the

479
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,120
folks in the DC office.
And so we're kind of letting

480
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:10,720
them be the point of the spear
on it.

481
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,160
We're sympathetic to these
issues and understand the

482
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,000
fairness and utilities are
passive receivers.

483
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,200
You know, they they didn't
create it.

484
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,920
Wastewater guys upstream are
just taking it.

485
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,720
Our guys downstream are just the
water they have to use and so

486
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,680
we're empathetic, but we're not
really playing an active role in

487
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,160
trying to solve the problem.
Well, let me ask you this

488
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,720
question then, Alan.
What about the association's

489
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:47,360
position on requesting more
funding from the EPA to support

490
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,240
these, you know, communities
with funding?

491
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,560
Like I know that the Biden
administration had into the

492
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,640
infrastructure bill allocated a
lot of money for each state to

493
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,040
support the implementation of
this rule.

494
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,680
But when you looked at that cost
breakdown, you're like, that's

495
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,200
not even close to really being
enough to help these communities

496
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,520
do what they need to really do.
It was just kind of like a, a

497
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,080
goodwill gesture almost.
I felt like to be honest with

498
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,080
you because we're like, Oh my
gosh, some of these the cost of

499
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,400
some of this upgrades for like 1
plant might be the entire budget

500
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,240
that was allocated for state
you.

501
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,200
Know state and you have one big
city that gets hit.

502
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:30,880
You're exactly right on your
numbers.

503
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,040
Yeah.
And So what what do you do

504
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:34,960
there?
I mean, are you guys advocating

505
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:42,000
for a much more appropriate
funding mechanism to implement

506
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,440
this type of rule and, and what
does that look like for you

507
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,480
guys?
Well, we are advocating for more

508
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,880
money, but I can honestly say
it's not, it won't be enough

509
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,720
either.
So the way it works is that

510
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,160
Congress has a 2 step process.
You authorize a certain amount

511
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,440
for the SRF and then you
appropriate the money.

512
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,320
And, and like you said, under
Biden, the infrastructure law,

513
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,760
they appropriated more money.
And so we, we are in the

514
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,840
process.
We submit testimony every year

515
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,160
to the two Appropriations
Committee and we're advocating

516
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,720
for finding the SRF at their
full authorized level.

517
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,960
And that's about 3 billion a
year.

518
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,880
And, and in the past we've
averaged about a 1,900,000,000

519
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,240
in that range.
So it's an increase, but it's

520
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:35,240
not spectacular.
But it's about what what was the

521
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,400
increase in the five years of
the infrastructure bill funding?

522
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,920
So we're going to go from a drop
in the bucket to two or three

523
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,480
drops in the bucket.
OK, it's still.

524
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,080
It's still on.
It's still woefully underfunded.

525
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,280
Yeah.
It's still woefully underfunded,

526
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,040
yeah.
And and and and I'm curious to

527
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,440
see, you know, does the
association, are you guys

528
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,080
putting any more emphasis with
the EPA on pursuing the

529
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:09,120
polluters?
We are, but again, you know what

530
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,920
I've seen, and this is really
more my experience at Fairfax

531
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,680
Water, you know, unless you have
this giant factory close by,

532
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,440
it's usually a combination of
small sources that accumulate

533
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,160
cumulatively can bump you over
the MCL.

534
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,120
If you have a decent sized
watershed, you know you might

535
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,080
have a hundred of these and
trying to track them down and

536
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,200
and who's the.
Culprit.

537
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,560
Bigger the bigger contributors,
you know, you may have 100, you

538
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,840
may have a dozen of your big
contributors trying to figure

539
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,280
out the right 12 out of the 100
is really complicated.

540
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,320
That's what we're seeing in at
Fairfax Water and and at

541
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,760
Watershed where they have some
issues.

542
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,240
So I think again, it's one of
those things, yeah, we, we, we

543
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,840
have said we have used that term
utilities are passive receivers

544
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,880
and we support efforts to hold
the manufacturers and users

545
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,160
accountable.
Beyond that, again, we're

546
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:11,120
letting that that's something
that AMWA and and AWA and left

547
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,320
and knock whether they're really
strongly going after that

548
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:21,600
because they understand that the
problem is that you need to be

549
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,440
honest, Sean.
Now we're fighting against the

550
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,000
the big manufacturers and even
folks like airports and

551
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,640
firefighting academies that have
been they've kind of been in

552
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,440
direct youth problems too.
You know, they're, they're

553
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,160
buying what was OK to use the
time and now they have this kind

554
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,720
of the the problem.
And so how this will play out on

555
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,320
the Hill and and liability
exemptions sort of the long

556
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:53,520
term, it's anybody's guess.
And again, I, as you, as you, as

557
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,280
we said it at the start, I've
been working inside the Beltway

558
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:02,840
for 30 something years and the
things in Congress are at A, at

559
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,800
a state that I've never seen
before.

560
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:10,240
And so there's a focus now on
the budget, trying to get the

561
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,840
budget out.
We've had the Israel Iran

562
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,720
curveball come up in the last
couple days, you know, here in,

563
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,520
in, in June.
And there are plenty of other

564
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,040
issues that are occupying these
folks thinking.

565
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,720
And so the success of those
water to wastewater associations

566
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,880
will have is, is, is totally to
be determined.

567
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,480
I, I'm not going to bet on it.
I quit betting on things in

568
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,760
Congress a few years ago.
Yeah.

569
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,960
Well, I mean, because it's
always a constant, you know,

570
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,640
cycle of change, right and and,
and administrative directives

571
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:51,200
and and priorities and yeah, so
it definitely is, is changing

572
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,480
constantly.
And, and you're right, I got to

573
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,880
imagine it's a challenge.
We're up on the hill a lot.

574
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,840
We're trying to make sure, yeah,
again, we've got a young guy

575
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,960
that that is, you know, up on
the hill once or twice a week

576
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,840
trying to talk to make sure
that, that folks know about the

577
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,920
need, you know, the need for the
funding.

578
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,880
Even even though it's a drop or
two in the bucket, it, it still

579
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,639
is better than nothing, which is
what it could be.

580
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,360
And in the current budget
environment, we're trying to

581
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,360
make sure we don't end up with a
zero.

582
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,239
And then it's not even for the,
for that funding, but there's

583
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:36,000
also federal funding that pays
for a portion of every state

584
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,080
program, the public water supply
supervision grant.

585
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,840
And the president's budget
zeroed that out.

586
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,120
So we're up there saying, hey,
if, if we don't have that, our

587
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,000
folks can't review the plans and
specs for this treatment.

588
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,120
They can't do the inspections
that are needed as they're

589
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,520
building it to make sure that
the money is being used wisely.

590
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,720
And so we're, and, and I think a
lot of people are kind of

591
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:01,200
understanding the implications
on that.

592
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,880
If there's no money, then all
these activities that the state

593
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,040
agencies do are going to be
drastically reduced because they

594
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:11,760
they get money from other
sources.

595
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,480
But in some cases, the federal
money is the vast majority of

596
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,280
their funding for their staff
and that disappears.

597
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,400
That's a problem.
That that's, that's a good

598
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,600
point, Alan.
I mean, you know, the, the, the

599
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,800
states are always relying on EPA
funding for management and

600
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,960
implementation of all the
programs, whether that's, you

601
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,960
know, hazardous waste, you know,
salt, you know, wastewater,

602
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,400
wastewater, air.
I mean, yeah, they are all

603
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,800
getting just.
Proposed to be zeroed out.

604
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,680
And so all the my compadres and
the state environmental

605
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,520
regulator associations, we're
all up on the hills saying hey,

606
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,360
for the appropriators because
again, the president makes a

607
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,400
budget request and that the
people on the hill actually

608
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,680
appropriate the money.
I think we're starting to make

609
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,120
some headway because there are
people in those committees whose

610
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,360
states have had tfest problems
or they have air pollution

611
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,480
problems.
And so you can say, hey, these

612
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,800
programs are at risk.
You know that public health is

613
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,120
at risk.
And I think we're starting to

614
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:18,480
make some headway on that.
So, you know, a lot of not a

615
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,440
lot, but there are a handful of
states that have gone on and

616
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:27,800
created their own P Foss rules
and limits that are above and

617
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,840
beyond what the proposed EPA
ones are.

618
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:37,400
What, if any are does the
association do to I mean support

619
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,400
those those agencies?
Is there, is there talk

620
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,720
internally amongst the various
agencies about helping, you

621
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:47,720
know, maybe you guys helping
them draft and come up with

622
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:50,040
alternative approaches to P
Foss?

623
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,960
I mean, maybe shed some light in
that space because we're seeing

624
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,040
a lot of movement in the
industry where, you know, you

625
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,520
got Michigan, you got several
other states that are doing

626
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,000
similar like new rules that are
and you know, in this state, you

627
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,600
have to comply with this rule,
but it doesn't care what EPA

628
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:07,400
does.
You're doing it.

629
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,960
But, you know, so now they're,
they're taking the, the levels

630
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,720
and the, and the rules into
their own hands, which is a

631
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,120
different approach, right?
And and I guess they have

632
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,240
premacy to do that if they want
to.

633
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:27,200
Right, Yeah, states have always,
they always can be stricter or

634
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,280
move ahead of EPA and that's
what we found.

635
00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:34,160
And I call this in the pre COVID
era, 1718 and 19.

636
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,280
You know, there's some states
that traditionally have done

637
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,240
this a fair amount, not a fair
amount, but California,

638
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,360
California for New Jersey,
sometimes there are a few that

639
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,840
would they regulate more, they
might regulate at a lower

640
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,040
number.
And So what we did in that pre

641
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:55,680
COVID time frame was put
together a handbook that just

642
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,200
for the states that are doing
this for the first time, places

643
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:04,080
like Vermont as an example.
Here's the things to consider

644
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,600
and it kind of parallels the EPA
process.

645
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,040
You got to look at health
effects, you got to look at

646
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,200
occurrence, you got to look at
the cost of treatment, you got

647
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,080
to look at the benefit cost
analysis kind of a chapter.

648
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,640
It was kind of a framework for
setting your own state level

649
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,600
standards for those folks.
And, and we hired A facilitator.

650
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,000
We had a couple workshops for
both states that had done it

651
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,640
before as well as ones that were
working on it.

652
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,120
And I think that handbook came
out in in 2019 and was met with

653
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:38,560
pretty good success.
Since then, the ones that we're

654
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,920
working on have done it.
There really hasn't been any new

655
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,160
ones because they could see EPA
what was working on coming down

656
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,120
with their standards.
So there was that push early on

657
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,920
because EP as plans weren't
really clear.

658
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:54,720
People wanted to, they were
getting internal pressure.

659
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:58,640
In some cases their state
legislature mandated they come

660
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,320
up with a rule by a certain
date.

661
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,480
So they had to based on a state
law.

662
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:09,320
So we provided this resource.
It was well received, but it and

663
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,400
it kind of served its purpose at
the time, which is fine from my

664
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,600
point of view.
You know, that's got to be a big

665
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,680
lift for an agency to go through
that process to, you know,

666
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:25,000
because it's probably going to
be a state funded type effort

667
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,280
versus a federal funded effort.
So the states have to have their

668
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,160
own, you know, budget and, you
know, revenue and, and resources

669
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,480
to actually do the work to
create this new rule.

670
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,400
And obviously the end game is
the one public Health

671
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,640
Protection.
But more than likely the you

672
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,640
know, it's the way I understand
states.

673
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,560
And since I used to be a former
regulator, you know, there's,

674
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:52,320
there's usually some financial
hook into a regular, you know, a

675
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:57,160
community or a, a, a rate payer
or, you know, somethings where

676
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,640
they're going to generate some
revenue from the process so they

677
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,160
can, you know, fund their future
work and, and oversight.

678
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,360
So I, I got imagine a lot of
states are like, hey, let's,

679
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,160
let's, let's wait for the EPA to
come out and tell us because we

680
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,720
don't have the bandwidth or
Technet technical expertise to

681
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:16,520
do it probably.
Right, as well as there are some

682
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,520
states that are precluded from
doing that in their constitution

683
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,560
or policy.
It's not many, there's probably

684
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,080
a dozen, but there's enough that
they're just, they just wait.

685
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:28,680
They have.
To wait and so.

686
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,160
And they can't be any stricter,
no stricter than the federal

687
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,360
government.
So it, it kind of varies.

688
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,920
But again, most, most, for
example, Virginia never set

689
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,440
standards, but they did.
And this happened to a lot of

690
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,360
states.
They would, they got money to do

691
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:49,440
sampling, kind of had a UCM R5.
They kind of had an idea of and,

692
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,320
and in Virginia, for example,
they did one round of suspected

693
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,920
sites.
They got more, more money and

694
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,160
they went to kind of like the
Tier 2 sites, you know, so they

695
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:05,200
were able to get a kind of a
statewide representation of, of

696
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,480
how big the problem might be,
which was helpful for them to

697
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,160
understand, OK, what do we do
when the, the feds come out?

698
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,400
And so that was again, not a
rule, but let's figure out.

699
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:22,600
And then the states also used
some of the money for emerging

700
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,800
contaminants.
There was some funding, you

701
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,720
know, the, the BIL money had
infrastructure, lead and

702
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:30,080
emerging contaminants.
They used some of that money for

703
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,440
testing too, because some states
weren't, some systems weren't

704
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,800
ready to build yet.
So they said, oh, if we can get

705
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,800
ahead and get everyone to do it,
then that's a jump on the, it'll

706
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,800
help the systems a bit.
They may know a couple years in

707
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,240
advance of when they'd have to
do the required federal

708
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:50,600
monitoring.
And I get some time to get to

709
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,040
start the, you know, the bench
testing, pilot testing, finding

710
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:55,360
a consultant, all that good
stuff.

711
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,560
Yeah.
Yeah, no, exactly.

712
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,840
Well, you know, I know the
association's focus is mostly

713
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,400
around drinking water, but give
maybe what is your thoughts on

714
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,960
the EPA's position on, you know,
classifying P Foss as a

715
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:16,400
hazardous constituent under
CERCLA and the implications of

716
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,360
that with any of the, you know,
the the communities that are

717
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:25,440
affected?
Does does that play into a bit

718
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:31,600
of your, you know, purview as
far as concern or management?

719
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:32,720
And we kept an.
Eye on it.

720
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:36,960
I mean really what we've been
promoting probably louder is,

721
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,400
you know, trying to get these
compounds out of commerce, you

722
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,000
know that that that really can
come out of the source.

723
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:48,760
But if not, doesn't even that
way, then you know, maybe down

724
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,320
the road if there's problems,
wait where he gets to be a bit

725
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,680
of a sticky wicket.
You'd like to do that from the

726
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,160
manufacturer perspective so they
know what they're doing and they

727
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,480
have to report under the toxic
release inventory.

728
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,560
All that stuff we don't want to
happen on the back end that we

729
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,600
still have to sort out as what
happens to the bio solids from

730
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,760
the wastewater plant and then
what we call residuals and water

731
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,280
treatment.
Because, you know, coming off

732
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,760
the said basins that dirt is
used as an agricultural

733
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,440
amendment a lot of places too.
And, and you know, there hasn't

734
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,960
been as much sampling on that to
know, OK, are you just

735
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,840
transferring these compounds
around from one media to the

736
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,960
other?
And so we, we haven't really

737
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,480
taken, this is another one where
we kind of see both sides of the

738
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,320
problem.
We we're aware of it and we

739
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,920
weigh in, but it's not been as
much of A focus as trying to

740
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,720
help our States and the systems
comply with these MCLS that are

741
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:47,440
out there.
When it comes to treatment

742
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:55,200
technologies that you know,
maybe the ASDWA would be kind of

743
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,560
supportive of, right, like
here's some, here's a handful of

744
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,000
technologies that we know are
effective.

745
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,680
We are really positive on this.
Do you guys have position papers

746
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,480
on that or, or you know where
you're communicating to

747
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,880
utilities?
This is what we support now at

748
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,680
this point in, in this I guess
the stage of technology that's

749
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,760
out there 'cause it, it seems
like it's an ever evolving

750
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:27,120
landscape of new products and
services solutions, but what's,

751
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,640
what's that look like for you
guys?

752
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:35,480
Well, it, it, it, it's good that
you asked that we, we have our

753
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,480
biggest concern or one of our
biggest concerns was the, the,

754
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:43,680
the workload on state agencies
and evaluating treatment, be it

755
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,000
evaluating these pilot testing.
And then this is for more

756
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,200
traditional advanced treatment,
you know, Jac, maybe some of the

757
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,760
sort of media, let alone some of
the more innovative

758
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,120
technologies.
So we partnered with a WA, my

759
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,320
former employer, and we just put
together this handbook on PFAS

760
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,480
treatment evaluation.
So it's a it's a process that

761
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:11,040
talks about how the systems and
their consultants work with the

762
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,800
states to get a smooth process,
how you optimize that process of

763
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,760
evaluating the treatments.
This was just released earlier

764
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,360
in 25.
There was a session on at the

765
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,760
AWA conference last week in
Denver.

766
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:32,960
And, and what we're trying to do
is to broaden that out a little

767
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,480
bit for some of the more
innovative technologies,

768
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,760
destruction technologies, even
looking at other technologies

769
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,680
that might be for something like
nitrate or arsenic or we still

770
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,560
have problems out there and
people are coming up with new

771
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,120
media or, you know, maybe
there's a media that was out

772
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:52,600
there and the guy went out of
business.

773
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,560
So now you're having to evaluate
another one cause you can't

774
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,480
replace what you have.
And so the engineers, the state

775
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,400
agencies still have to do that.
So we're trying to, this was a

776
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,640
pretty successful project with
AWA and getting that done.

777
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:09,000
And so we're trying to do what
we can to focus on that part of

778
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,880
it.
We don't really have the

779
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,160
resources to evaluate, you know,
this destruction technology or

780
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,040
that.
We're trying to figure out a

781
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,680
framework that can help
everybody.

782
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,000
And again, we have one of these
teams channels that focus on

783
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,000
this.
It's seen a little more traffic

784
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,520
these days.
Are you guys helping facilitate

785
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,360
technology providers and getting
their technology in front of

786
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,880
these agencies like in webinars
or promotional type things where

787
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,720
you know, obviously you're not
promoting any individual company

788
00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:44,080
or whatever, but you're saying,
hey, we want to put it on the

789
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,000
webinar.
This is a technology you guys

790
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,360
could consider and here's we're
going to do something to educate

791
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,920
you guys more about it.
You know, you can follow up with

792
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,480
these guys later, but obviously
this is something that might

793
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,520
look promising.
Are you doing anything like

794
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:57,360
that?
Where?

795
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,280
You're going, it's a good idea.
I like it, Sean.

796
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,040
I mean I haven't because again
we did that a little bit with

797
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,600
let's service line inventories.
The initial inventories we had,

798
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:13,160
we did a series, this is early
on, couple three years ago, did

799
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,160
a series of free webinars.
One we had just kind of all the

800
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,280
big engineering consultants talk
about what they're doing and

801
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,160
what they were finding.
We had another one where there

802
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:27,040
were more software providers,
Esri and their Arc GIS module

803
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:32,080
120 water and others on their
offerings.

804
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,520
That's not really our sweet
spot, but I think it's helpful.

805
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,600
We can play that role and, and,
and do it in a way where, you

806
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,040
know, it's kind of like open
season.

807
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,960
Anyone's offered, you know,
anyone's able to participate.

808
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,480
But that that may be an effort
that will take almighty this

809
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:48,440
year.
I like the idea.

810
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,920
We just haven't done it.
Yeah, there are a lot of

811
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,760
software providers that are
doing a lot of the what they

812
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:59,800
call it the AML, you know,
technology tracking real time

813
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:05,320
water usage, you know, really
helping control the the

814
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,560
treatment and and delivery
process and rates, you know, for

815
00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:13,400
they got to collect the, the,
the rates for the usage of water

816
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,280
and, and those types of software
really help.

817
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,800
But then, you know, we haven't
really touched on it, but I'll

818
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:19,480
bring it up.
You know, the lead, the lead

819
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:24,400
contamination, there was a a big
push with the EPA to have all

820
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,480
the utilities go out and
identified lead pipes in in

821
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:32,000
their their networks throughout
their, you know, throughout the

822
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,320
country really.
And, and I think that that's

823
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:35,560
still in progress.
Really.

824
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,240
I don't know that that's
complete yet and there.

825
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,240
Seems to be able to work well.
Almost everybody's submitted

826
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:43,960
some.
I mean literally most states

827
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,760
have a handful.
They could have 40 if it's a big

828
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,800
state, but they've all had some
who just haven't submitted

829
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,840
anything.
And there's enforcement going

830
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:54,000
on.
But most, most it's something.

831
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,160
The issue is reducing the
unknowns.

832
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,240
And so and the cost to go figure
that out?

833
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:02,800
Exactly.
And even if you don't, you know,

834
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,160
you're not going to have to dig
up everything, but at a minimum

835
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,120
you're going to have to dig up
some.

836
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,680
So you have a data set and then
it's some kind of model

837
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:12,640
statistics to figure out if you
don't.

838
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,280
And that takes time and money if
you say you know.

839
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:23,000
And so people and it kind of
varies how the systems are doing

840
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:24,920
it.
Some they want to reduce all the

841
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,160
unknowns because if there's an
unknown, you have to send an

842
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,960
annual letter to those
residences for you have an

843
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:32,880
unknown saying, hey, it's
unknown.

844
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,160
We're working to figure it out.
Might be LED, you know, and then

845
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,720
the utility gets a lot of phone
calls for getting a lead test

846
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:41,800
for the water.
So they, they'd like to reduce

847
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:43,160
the number of letters they send
out.

848
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,120
And then you have some that just
say, I'm just going to send out

849
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,840
the letters and wait and, and
kind of wait it out and see what

850
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,480
EPA does.
So it ranges, but in general,

851
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,960
you know, most of the systems
did an inventory and we found

852
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:03,120
that, you know, most or at least
reasonable, they passed the

853
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,680
laugh test.
We did sponsor a couple of the

854
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,520
deadline was October 16th, the
last year of 24 sponsor some

855
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,560
states only discussions in
November, December.

856
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:14,720
So you could talk amongst each
other and it was, you know,

857
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:17,360
generally pretty positive.
So we thought that was a good

858
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,000
thing that they didn't come to
us and say, oh, these, these all

859
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,280
stink and the systems are being
lazy.

860
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,480
I think most systems took it
pretty seriously.

861
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,800
There were a lot of programs
through rural water and other

862
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,360
technical sense providers to do
it for the very small systems.

863
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:37,600
And so with that you probably
got a higher caliber submissions

864
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,880
and if they hadn't offered that,
that service.

865
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,160
I got to imagine a lot of these,
sorry about that.

866
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,680
It's OK, We're having it here.
We're just not getting the the

867
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,000
we're getting rain.
They haven't gotten the Thunder

868
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:48,800
yet.
Yeah, so.

869
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:50,480
Got the.
Thunder, I'm here.

870
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,440
Yeah, I was going to say, yeah,
I'm so I'm, I'm sure a lot of

871
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,680
utilities don't want to be a
Flint, MI right.

872
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,920
And they don't want, they don't
want to have that, you know,

873
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:05,160
exposure.
And so, you know, they want

874
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,160
their community to be safe and
they need to do it.

875
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,880
I think it goes back again to a
lot of funding challenges to,

876
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,640
for these utilities to pay for
the, the work that needs to be

877
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,400
done.
And then once the assessment's

878
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,960
done, there's still a lot of
work to be done on replacing and

879
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:23,880
the pipes.
And you know, that's another

880
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,680
difficult, I guess, pill to
swallow from a, a, a consumer

881
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,120
too, because sometimes these
rules are written like, well,

882
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:31,520
the, the pipe goes to your
house.

883
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,560
You have to pay for that like.
That's right, you know from the

884
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,880
right away to the building wall
what's on private property you

885
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,240
have to pay for.
Now a very small number of

886
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:44,520
utilities will set up like a
separate foundation and they'll

887
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,360
get philanthropist to contribute
to fund some of those.

888
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,440
But those are needs based.
It makes sense that you know if

889
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,600
if you know if you live in a
$2,000,000 house.

890
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,880
You could probably afford to do
that, probably afford the.

891
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,160
Plumber to do that, you know,
but but there are plenty of

892
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,880
people who can't you know that
that they're they're scraping to

893
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,000
get by and pay the normal bills
every month. 100 percent, 100%.

894
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:08,800
I'm supportive of these
programs.

895
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,880
I mean, it ties back into some
of the affordability discussion

896
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,720
we had on, on PPS treatment that
all of a sudden if, if, if

897
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:20,280
you're scraping by and they say,
hey, we need $4000 for the, the,

898
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,880
your side of the line, you're
going to go, I don't have $4000,

899
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,160
I don't have $400.00, you know?
Meanwhile, I'm, I'm exposed to

900
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,840
lead, lead pipe, you know, the
water, you know, that's not,

901
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,320
that's, that's, that's not good
too.

902
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,360
And then of course, those guys
aren't the ones who put those

903
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:34,440
pipes there and they, you know,
so.

904
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,680
That was some plumber builder
back in the day, you know, and

905
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,280
so these, so I I think it's a
it's a it again isn't, that's

906
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,480
just a longer term problem you
have to chip away at.

907
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,960
I think that that over time the
lead service lines will come

908
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,440
out, but it may be, it may take
more time than what EPA

909
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,120
requires.
And that may be something that

910
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,400
the new administration might
take a look at is be a little

911
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:03,040
more flexible on the on the end
game and and having some way to

912
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,360
certify the of a reasonable, a
reasonable effort to get the

913
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,080
lines out of the ground, the
lead lines.

914
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,480
So besides Lead and P Foss, what
are the big issues of the day

915
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,920
for ASDWA?
I, I'd say the last one I want

916
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,520
to, there's two, I'd say
workforce and resilience.

917
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:28,960
So we're seeing a, a real
workforce challenge across the

918
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,400
sector.
And for a long time, Sean, it

919
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,360
was always about the water
operators, you know, the

920
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,280
operator in a little town, he's
been there forever.

921
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:40,680
But what I'm seeing is it, it
cuts across anyone that works in

922
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,600
water.
So it's at EPA, it's at our

923
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:48,760
agencies, it's at the the
consultants, they tell me they

924
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,080
can't find people with like 12
years experience, 15.

925
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,400
Those are hard to come by.
People in my in my try.

926
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,400
We're we're all retiring.
You know, the boomers are, are

927
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,320
coming out.
And so there's a real workforce

928
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,160
issue across the board.
And, and again, with this budget

929
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:09,840
crunch at EPA and the state
agencies, they're struggling to

930
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,400
replace those people.
And so there, there have been

931
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,160
some strategies.
Again, we do a lot of state to

932
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:20,000
state information transfer.
How do you find good workers?

933
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,480
How do you recruit and retain?
You know, if you can hire

934
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:25,800
someone and they work 3 or 4
years and they go to work

935
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,720
somewhere else, you're starting
over.

936
00:54:27,720 --> 00:54:31,720
So a lot of work on that.
The other one is resilience.

937
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:39,200
And you know, a lot of systems
are, are, are quite old and, and

938
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,320
even a bigger system, they may
not have maintained it properly.

939
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:47,040
And they can, you know, whenever
you have a system failure,

940
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,560
usually it's a confluence of
multiple factors.

941
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:55,320
It's not one thing.
And so you always think about

942
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,360
that and the the challenges of a
small system, but they're major

943
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,920
metropolitan areas.
Same problem.

944
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,920
That are on shaky ground.
Same problem, yeah.

945
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,840
They haven't reinvested or
upgraded their infrastructure

946
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,040
over time.
They haven't allocated budget

947
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,080
for constant improvements.
I mean, that's.

948
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,800
A big problem, one thing that I
see that relates to that, I

949
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,040
think a big difference is
whether utility is in a a city

950
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,120
government or a separate
authority or utility district.

951
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,840
So Fairfax Water is a separate
authority for the county.

952
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,520
The board is appointed by the
county supervisors.

953
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,840
There's a real separation
between the board of directors

954
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,440
and the elected officials.
So Fairfax Water has been

955
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,560
raising their rates 5% a year
the entire time I've been on the

956
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:42,520
board and even before I started.
So they 20 years of 5% a year.

957
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,200
And they're, they're, they've
doubled the amount of

958
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,440
infrastructure they're replacing
and they're trying to double

959
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,960
that again to level off so that
they're now replacing their

960
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,640
pipes at an adequate amount.
And, and we're taking a hard

961
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,280
look at backup power, you know,
so there's there's a lot of

962
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,480
issues.
And, and the one that happened

963
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,880
here was the city of Richmond,
their treatment plant went down

964
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,800
and they were out of water on
the day the legislature was

965
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,480
coming back in the town to start
their session in January.

966
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,640
So that gets everybody's
attention when the Legislature

967
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,440
kind of gets called the order
and immediately adjourns, you

968
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,080
know?
Yeah, hey, you get to boil your

969
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:19,240
water.
What's that safe?

970
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:21,840
They were out for a while and
then you got a boil of water for

971
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:22,880
three or four days.
Yeah.

972
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,600
So, so that got everyone's
attention and, and, and, and,

973
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,160
and in the after action report,
you can see that they just, they

974
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,800
weren't keeping up with the
infrastructure and the workforce

975
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,440
wasn't properly trained.
A lot of the issues that that I

976
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,280
talked about.
And so I think that's an issue

977
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:42,200
that I wanted to think about a
little differently is how do

978
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:43,720
you, how do you be better
prepared?

979
00:56:43,720 --> 00:56:49,560
Cause water is 24/7 through 65.
You don't notice it, You don't

980
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,040
have it.
And we, everybody, we all need

981
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:53,360
it.
We all need it.

982
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:58,360
If you think about every time
you touch water during the day,

983
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:00,520
starting from when you get up in
the morning, everyone in the

984
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,360
morning, they go to the
bathroom, they have coffee or

985
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,680
tea or just drink a glass of
water, you know, nobody gets

986
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:07,240
through.
I don't.

987
00:57:07,240 --> 00:57:09,680
I shouldn't say that, but I
don't know anybody didn't get

988
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:13,120
first through their first two
hours and get touched by water a

989
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:18,200
couple times.
And so you expect it until you

990
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,160
don't have it and you've lived
just 24 hours.

991
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,440
And that's happened a couple
times in my life through

992
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:28,240
primarily power outages.
But you adapt and adjust.

993
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:32,600
But if those 24 hours turn into
a week, it it it changes things

994
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:33,640
really quick.
Yeah.

995
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,680
So backup power is important.
Backup power is important,

996
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:41,160
thinking about infrastructure,
single points of failure, all

997
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:42,400
that kind of stuff.
So.

998
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,920
So what are the let you know you
got the the rest of this year,

999
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,480
you got six months now looking
forward the end of this year,

1000
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,160
what's your top priorities for
the remaining part of this year?

1001
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,320
I, I think it's really it, it's
trying to get advocating for

1002
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,200
this funding on the Hill.
I there's two, I think that's

1003
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,160
the big one.
You know, how do we make sure

1004
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:03,920
they understand the need for
the, the, the cult categorical

1005
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,160
grants for all the environmental
regulators?

1006
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,680
You know, we go up there, we
talk about for our members, but

1007
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:13,000
we say, hey, by the way, that's
one of nine for the environment.

1008
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,480
That's all about protecting
public health and the

1009
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,000
environment.
So I, I think that's a big

1010
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,600
message and I think it's also
working with EPA and what they

1011
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:26,560
might do on PFAS and, or LED to
make sure the changes that get

1012
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,240
proposed are, are, are better if
they, if that's the way they

1013
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,240
decide to go.
So we're doing the.

1014
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:34,920
Dialogue with EPA is what we're
what we're looking at doing.

1015
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,480
Right, right.
Yeah, that would be good.

1016
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,560
That would be good.
Well, hey Alan, this has been a

1017
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,440
great conversation.
I really appreciate you taking

1018
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:47,360
some time to kind of give our
listeners a little bit more

1019
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,520
insights on the association of
safe drinking water.

1020
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:55,280
You know, water administrators
and what you guys are doing to

1021
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,680
support the agencies across the
country and the big tasks they

1022
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,120
have at hand and, and how you're
aggregating and brokering and

1023
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:07,320
being that go between, between
the the Hill and the EPA and the

1024
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:09,200
agency.
So I really appreciate that you

1025
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:11,200
explaining that for our
listeners.

1026
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,000
Appreciate the work you're doing
and to keep up the great work

1027
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,840
and let us know maybe we can
revisit maybe in a couple months

1028
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,000
or so or six months down the
road, see if there's any

1029
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,040
positive impacts or you know,
think outcomes that you've been

1030
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,080
able to achieve and, and we just
keep in touch.

1031
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:28,640
So it would be great.
Thanks for the opportunity

1032
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:30,440
today, Sean.
Thanks for listening and

1033
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,760
watching the show.
If you enjoyed the show then

1034
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,440
please share it with your
friends and coworkers on social

1035
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:37,560
media and tell somebody in
person.

1036
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:39,920
Thanks for being with us, ET
Nation.