Potential Impacts of the Newly Proposed EPA PFAS Rule to Affected Communities with Emily Donovan

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And I know this because for the
majority of my life, I assumed

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that when I turned on the tap
anywhere in the United States

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that I was going to get clean,
healthy, safe drinking water.

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But what I got was Clearwater.
When I moved to Wilmington, I

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didn't.
I couldn't see the the toxins.

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I couldn't see the contaminants,
couldn't see them, couldn't

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smell them, but they were there.
Welcome to the Environmental

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Transformation Podcast, where we
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I'm your host, Sean Grady, and

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Now let's get started.

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Welcome to the Environmental
Transformation podcast.

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I'm your host, Sean Grady, and
today's guest is Emily Donovan.

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Emily is the.
She's got the record.

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I think she's a three time
returning guest on the show.

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So we're super excited to have
Emily back on the show and she

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can catch us up on what's going
on with the Clean Cape Fear and

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all the great work that she's
been doing to help her local

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community there in North
Carolina.

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And so Emily, welcome back to
the show.

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And if for the listeners who
haven't really caught up on any

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of the previous episodes that
we've talked about, share a

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little bit about what you guys
are doing at Clean Cape Fear and

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kind of your mission in life
there with that, the

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organization.
Yeah, so Clean Cape Fear.

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We're a grassroots community
group.

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We actually just had our 8th
anniversary.

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Never thought we would.
You know when we started this

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that we would be at it still
today.

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But we did know this was a hard
fight.

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So we formed after learning that
DuPont, now called Commors, had

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dumped extreme levels of PFAS,
including Gen.

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X, into our water supply, which
ended up in our tap water.

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And so, you know, these last
eight years, our whole focus has

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been holding our elected leaders
accountable, stopping PFAS

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exposures, making sure that the
polluter pays and not the

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communities that were impacted,
and then making sure that we

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understand the health risks.
And so that's kind of been the

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sole focus of our journey these
last eight years.

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It's been a bit of a wild ride.
Well, I know and you know, we

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connected several years ago and
it was interesting because it

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was a time when the Dark Waters
movie was coming out and I think

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I just had Robert Blott on the
show.

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And shortly thereafter, we
connected and, and we talked

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about some of the good work that
you've done and then supported

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Robert and Mark Ruffalo and some
of the work that they're doing

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to promote, you know, these
rules that were implemented by

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the EPA, you know, just last
year.

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And which was a seem to be like
a monumental achievement for all

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of the hard work that Robert and
his team and other attorneys

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have done and, and plaintiffs
over the years who've been

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suing, you know, DuPont, Kim
Moore's, other companies like

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them who have been responsible
for disposing of PFOS and either

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watersheds or landfills or
wherever, you know, and it's had

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a big impact on local
communities.

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And so we connected and I
thought that was a great way to

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kind of, you know, give a
different perspective for our

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listeners of individuals who
really have a stake in the game

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of this, this exposure that's
that people are having.

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Because I think a lot of people
don't really have a real serious

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connection to, you know, massive
for large amounts or acute, you

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know, amounts of, of pee Foss
exposure.

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It's it's more of a chronic or
just they don't know that

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they're even exposed.
But you guys have real exposure

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issues.
And I thought was a great, you

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know, way to shed a light on
that aspect of what community,

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what communities are dealing
with that are similar to maybe

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if you've watched the Dark
Waters movie, what they face.

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So thanks for coming on the show
to talk about what you're doing

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with Clean Cape Fair because
it's, it's, it's so important

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and my heart goes out for you
guys and everything you're

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doing.
So let's roll this up a little

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bit.
Here we are June to 2025.

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We just, you know, had the, the
new rules that were passed by

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the EPA in the Biden
administration last year.

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And now just this, this past
month and on the 14th of May,

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the EPA has come out and they
are pulling back four of the six

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compounds that they regulated
through the Safe Drinking Water

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Act.
And they were all, I think

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mostly the short chain P FOS,
you know, not the long chain

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ones, the P FOS and the P FOS.
So I mean, what are you guys

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thinking and what's happening on
your front?

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Yeah.
Well, you know, there's a couple

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of things that that are
important for listeners to

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remember.
It's that, you know, these were

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finalized maximum contaminant
drinking water levels.

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And so because they're
finalized, the Safe Drinking

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Water Act has an anti backslide
provision within it.

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And so we think that what the
EPA is currently doing right now

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may looks like a rollback and
that would be illegal.

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So I think that's the first
thing that we need to consider.

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And the second thing that we
need to consider is that the the

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what what the EPA is doing with
the four, there were six PFAS,

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like you said, that were
approved last year for drinking

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water standards.
They're delaying the

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implementation timeline for two
of them.

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That's PFLS and PFLA.
Those are both no longer in

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commercial use.
And then they're taking the ones

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that are in commercial use and
they're saying that they didn't

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want to rescind and re evaluate
them.

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This is put a, this is, is going
to put a tremendous burden back

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on communities where it does not
belong.

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You know, communities need to
have a level of certainty with

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regulations to say here's what
the expectation is.

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These are the drinking water
levels.

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And, and as you decide if you
have a problem in your area and

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you need to upgrade your
treatment process, you can have

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a clear timeline and a clear
understanding of of what you

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need to treat towards.
By removing these 4 PFAS,

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there's creating a cloud of
uncertainty and chaos.

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And that again, that bird now
falls back on a community like

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mine because eight years ago,
when we learned we had Genex in

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our tap water, we kept hearing
over and over again that the

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water met or exceeded all state
and federal guidelines us

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because there weren't any, that
wasn't saying much of anything.

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And what the EPA is doing right
now, this new administration is

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now trying to, it feels like
they're rolling back, finalized

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and already set into law
drinking water standards for

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compounds that are that some of
them are still in commercial

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use.
These are the compounds that we

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may start seeing showing up more
prevalent more frequently in

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drinking water.
So I think they, they estimate

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that it's showing up in about
10% of public water supplies

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within the United States right
now.

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You know, there's a real concern
that that's just going to

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continue to grow because these
are the PFAS that are being used

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by yearly now.
So, you know, I, I, I think

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that's one thing for listeners
to remember.

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Another thing for listeners to
remember is that this absolutely

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is your problem, even if your
tap water is not contaminated

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because 96% of Americans have
detectable levels of PFAS in

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their blood.
How'd it get there?

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You know what we're getting,
we're clearly being exposed and

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that and you know, we have to
know that that blood exposure is

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not the only benchmark for PFAS
exposures.

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These newer chain PFAS like Gen.
X and the ones that the EPA is

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creating uncertainty around,
these pass through the body

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quicker.
So they may not accumulate in

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the blood, but that doesn't mean
that when you're being exposed

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to them that you're not having
some sort of impact.

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You know, we liken it.
A lot of researchers and

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scientists use the analogy of
chronic alcohol consumption, you

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know, having a glass of wine
here and there or beer every now

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and then, not a problem if you
do it every day for years and

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years and years.
It catches up to you.

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It absolutely you know it body
the body will show signs of

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toxicity.
You know, we have to, that's

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reasonable to assume that the
same thing would be occurring

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with PFAS.
We're not consenting to this.

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That that's the one thing I
think listeners also need to

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recognize is, is, you know, you
can choose to eliminate alcohol

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from your diet.
You can choose to eliminate

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anything from your diet, but you
can't choose to eliminate your

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exposures to PFAS when they go
unregulated, when they're

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allowed to.
To hide in our tap water, hide

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in our food supply, hide in our
air, hide in our waterways.

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You know, great points and and
it is interesting when you think

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about it, this kind of rollback
almost is going to be reigniting

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so many new lawsuits in my mind
against the, the the polluters

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of these chemicals to go through
a whole nother like cycle of

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dark water scenarios of, you
know, epidemiology studies

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testing human, you know,
exposure.

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Is it really going to be, you
know, is it really causing

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cancer for all these, these
compounds that that just got

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repealed?
And there's this I just see like

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this is going to be just a
similar cycle again for this

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these chemicals because they're
taking them off the the list.

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And, you know, they've already
done the work to demonstrate

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that they have the toxicity and
the, and the, you know, cancer

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causing concerns.
And now we're just going back

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and, and reassessing it again.
What was the wrong with the

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assessment The first time?
I guess would be a question I

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would have you know.
Well, and I, I think that's a

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really nuanced and detailed
question that our community, you

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know, we're our community is not
in a position, we're not

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technical experts at that level.
You'd want to ask a training

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professional to find out, you
know, why, why is the chemical

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industry relitigating what
appeared to be settled science?

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You know, that is definitely a
question that we should be

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asking back to, to the chemical
industry, to the the current EPA

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administration.
What are they doing?

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Why are they doing it?
From a contaminated community

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perspective?
Here's what's important to

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remember for the average
American.

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That's what I am is, you know,
here's something that that what

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we do know, it's harmful for the
ones that we've studied, for the

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ones that lack the level of
study that PFOA and PFOS have.

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Why?
You know, let's use

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precautionary principles.
This should not be in our tap

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water period.
You know, if we're following the

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Clean Water Act.
The Clean Water Act is very

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clear that these chemicals are
not supposed to be released or

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discharged unless there's been
approval and in the permitting

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process.
And the one thing that we found

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in North Carolina is that DuPont
did not disclose.

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They didn't disclose this
chemistry.

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They it was grandfathered in.
They hid it from the government,

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they hid it from regulators. 3 M
DuPont both did it.

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I mean, that is settled the the
whole, they knew the toxicity

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when they when they were when
they were making it, they knew

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they were releasing it.
That is very settled.

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This newer replacement
chemistry.

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They're trying to do the same
thing.

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They're trying to say that this
is safe.

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But where's the body of
evidence?

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Where is the body of evidence
that 100% confirms that this is

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safe?
That doesn't exist, I think.

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But you know, before we try to
explain why do we have to rehash

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the finalized drinking water
standards, I think that's

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incredibly important for
listeners to fully understand

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this is law.
These six, these six PFAS are

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current law right now.
So while the chemical industry

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is challenging the current law
and the EPA issued a press

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release, that's all this was,
was a press release saying

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here's our plan.
Our plan is to no longer defend

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the drinking water standards.
Our plan is to review, delay two

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of them and review four of them
that while they delay and while

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they review, it's my
understanding these are still

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the federal drinking water
standards.

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00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:06,960
You know, I mean again, not a
regulator, not A and not a, a

227
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,480
water utility expert.
So I would Fact Check that.

228
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:17,240
Or an attorney the.
Overexposed contaminated

229
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,640
community member who did not
consent to, to being poisoned

230
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,720
through tap water with Kfas that
is very concerned that our

231
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,040
community had, you know, excess
levels of Kfas not only in our

232
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,280
blood, but in our tap water.
We're seeing it in our

233
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,440
waterways.
It's showing up in our sea foam

234
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,840
along our, our beautiful beaches
that bring in, you know, $1

235
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:41,400
billion annually in tourism
economy fish that's contaminated

236
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,200
to the point that it's advised
to eat it maybe once a year.

237
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,120
You know, there's this is this
is a toxin that we really need

238
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,560
to remember rises above all the
rest.

239
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:55,600
You know, at, you know, at the
NRDC made a really good their,

240
00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,360
their science advisor made a
really good point that just

241
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,640
said, you know, of all the
toxins, why is PFAS the one that

242
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,720
gets so much attention?
And it's because it does rise

243
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,920
above the rest for its
persistence, for it, you know,

244
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,720
the fact that it stays in the
environment, doesn't naturally

245
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,760
degrade.
There is no proven safe disposal

246
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,680
method at this time.
The fact that every every time

247
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,520
scientists study, they find some
organ system that is impacted.

248
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,320
And again, I think what the
chemical industry is trying to

249
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,360
do is they're trying to say keep
drinking this until science

250
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,040
proves that it's unhealthy at
this level.

251
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,240
That burden does not be that
burden should not be in our

252
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,240
body, that we are not the Guinea
pigs.

253
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:40,800
Yeah.
No, Yeah.

254
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,160
Well, I do think in the past few
years there has been some pretty

255
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:52,160
good advancements on treatment
of pee Foss in, in water in, in,

256
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:57,400
in certain applications you're
still going to have a residual

257
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,080
of of pee Foss at some level for
disposal.

258
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,480
But there are some new promising
technologies I think that's

259
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,880
pretty good out there.
So there are some good things I

260
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,280
think on the forefront to help
address the treatment side of

261
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,960
this, which I think is good.
I think the biggest thing I'm

262
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,240
kind of without, I mean, guess
reading between the lines here

263
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,240
with EPA is they're really
concerned about the cost impact

264
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:28,280
to municipalities for complying
with this rule.

265
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:33,840
And basically, I don't think the
EPA or these municipalities have

266
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,720
put together enough funding to
adequately support these these

267
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,320
utilities with the type of
treatment systems that are

268
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,360
needed to meet the level.
And now they're like, wow, we

269
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,320
need to probably rethink this
because it's billions and

270
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,760
billions of dollars and we
didn't account for that much.

271
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,760
I mean, that's kind of what I'm
sensing, but maybe I'm wrong.

272
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:55,520
But what are you?
What are you?

273
00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,960
What are your thoughts?
Well, I think that the, you

274
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,800
know, Congress through the
Bipartisan Infrastructure Act

275
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,520
and the Inflation Reduction Act
gave money, I think it was a

276
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,680
bipartisan infrastructure act
that actually earmarked funding

277
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,640
specifically for this 'cause I
think what utilities don't like

278
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:19,920
is unfunded mandates don't,
don't make us treat, treat for

279
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,880
something and then not provide
us with resources and for, for,

280
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,800
for low income communities and,
and you know, disadvantaged

281
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,760
communities of all types.
That is a huge concern and 100%

282
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,080
something we should be
addressing.

283
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,400
And I think that's exactly what
the Biden administration was

284
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,200
doing as they were saying, hey,
we know that we want our

285
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,280
administration to issue first
ever federal PFAS drinking water

286
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,160
standards.
And we know that this cannot be

287
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:46,880
unfunded.
We know that there needs to be

288
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,960
money and assistance provided.
I think, you know, there's,

289
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,400
that's why PFOA and PFOS were
designated as hazardous

290
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:59,200
substances to make sure that
there it was a legal pathway to,

291
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,880
to be able to, to get cleanup
costs.

292
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,119
You know, we're in litigation
right now.

293
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,200
This is now what, 60 years
running that our utilities

294
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,119
locally have been shouldering
the burden of the cleanup.

295
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,560
We've made the upgrades and the
majority of our, of our

296
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,560
communities, there's, there's
still unfortunately one county,

297
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,720
Brunswick County that still has
not been able to upgrade their

298
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,640
treatment process through a
series of construction delays.

299
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,400
These have been massive
investments.

300
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,440
We have seen our water rates go
up.

301
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,000
We are frustrated that the water
rates are rising.

302
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,160
We also know that it's not our
fault.

303
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,920
We didn't 'cause this, that it
is polluter that should be

304
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,200
paying.
And so I think there needs to be

305
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,120
a clear faster mechanism to
ensure that the polluter pays

306
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,560
for the cleanup.
There's massive litigation that

307
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,080
happened, huge litigation
between 3 M and the multi

308
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:54,360
district litigation that
happened with a with a triple FI

309
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,520
think Rob a lot was also leading
that case.

310
00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,560
That money is supposed to be
assisting water utilities to be

311
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,680
able to do clean up kmors and
DuPont also did a, you know, a

312
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,840
massive settlement.
So the money is available.

313
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,440
And I think what we also need to
step back and consider is what

314
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,280
are we trying to tell the
average American?

315
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,640
You need to drink these
chemicals that have been linked

316
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,640
to certain cancers and serious
illnesses and diseases.

317
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,520
While we know that cancer is on
the rise in an unnatural way in

318
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,640
the United States.
So, so you need to bear the

319
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:36,160
burden, can take the risk and in
either drink unhealthy water or

320
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,480
let's all work together,
shoulder the burden and improve

321
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,600
our public drinking water.
So there's a couple of, you

322
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,080
know, there's a couple things we
have to consider.

323
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,760
And I will say that what baffles
me more than anything that I

324
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,280
think listeners really should
understand is when when groups

325
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,840
like mine, we go to DC and we
advocate for these drinking

326
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,280
water standards because we don't
want T fast in our tap water.

327
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,480
We don't want any other
community to wake up and have

328
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,400
their utilities tell them that
the water meets or exceeds all

329
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,520
state and federal guidelines
because there aren't any.

330
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,800
And that that's why there's T
fast in our tap water And the

331
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,520
utility wasn't doing anything
about it.

332
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:15,400
The thing that I think it's
important to know is we didn't

333
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,080
see utilities with us fighting
to get these drinking water

334
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,040
standards.
Why are they fighting against us

335
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:22,920
on these drinking water
standards?

336
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,880
They're in the public health
business.

337
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,960
They should be, yeah, they
should be right there saying,

338
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,280
hey, why are you?
Yeah, because it seems like

339
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:36,400
there's, even though they're not
the generator of these

340
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,480
chemicals, they are a
distributor of the chemicals in

341
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,200
a way, right?
I mean because they're

342
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,000
processing them through their
system.

343
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,120
They're making product and that
product, there is a trust,

344
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,480
There's a public trust that is
included in the product.

345
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,600
It's that when you turn on your
tap water, you're hoping that it

346
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,960
doesn't give you cancer or
you're hoping that it's not

347
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,480
polluting your body.
You know, there is a, there is a

348
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,360
trust that's happening between
you and and if you're on public

349
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:07,880
water and your public water
provider that, that you're

350
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,800
getting what you need.
Can I know this?

351
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,600
Because for, for the majority of
my life, I assumed that when I

352
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,280
turned on the tap anywhere in
the United States that I was

353
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,120
going to get clean, healthy,
safe drinking water.

354
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:23,280
But what I got was Clearwater.
When I moved to Wilmington, I, I

355
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:28,280
couldn't see the the toxins.
I couldn't see the contaminants,

356
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,720
couldn't see them, couldn't
smell them, but they were there,

357
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,840
right?
Right, right.

358
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,840
Well, that's an interesting.
Perspective that a lot of people

359
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,240
aren't really thinking through.
Hello ET Nation, I want to thank

360
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:43,800
you for listening to the
podcast.

361
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,840
If you enjoy the interviews
we're bringing you, please

362
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consider supporting the program
by visiting my website at

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seankgrady.com and buy me a cup
of coffee.

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Proceeds will go towards helping
me continue producing timely

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content and offsetting
production costs.

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That's Sean K grady.com.
Now, let's dive back into this

400
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,560
interview.
I mean, yeah, it is interesting

401
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,680
that the Public Utilities
aren't, you know, shouldering,

402
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,920
you know, the burden with you
side by side to go and advocate

403
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:02,400
for these these changes because
they are, you know, they're

404
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,240
delivering the the actual and,
and contaminated water and they

405
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,320
haven't been able to process it.
And, and I think their fear more

406
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,200
than likely is probably that, Oh
my gosh, how do we, you know,

407
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,360
treat all this and what's the
cost to us and, and how do we

408
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,720
pay for that?
And, and you know, is it going

409
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,680
to have to be taxpayers or, or
ratepayers to, to support us or,

410
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:28,640
you know, it's, it's a mess
because there's not a clear way

411
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,760
of getting this resolved.
And I think in an effective way

412
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:39,360
that is addressing the issue and
looking at the EPA statements,

413
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:44,120
they, they clearly say, Hey, we
really want to help our

414
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:49,400
communities without these PFOS
outreach type programs and, and

415
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,440
things like that.
But my can, my thought is like,

416
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:56,600
OK, well, how about the, about
having a more robust, you know,

417
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,360
financial mechanism to help
these, these utilities actually

418
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,320
address the PFOS treatment
process?

419
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,520
I mean, the sampling process
seems to be to, to confirm they

420
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,880
have it.
It seems to be a little archaic

421
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,720
and in the way they're doing it
in the time between sampling

422
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,360
events is, is, is, you know,
stretched out a little bit, you

423
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:23,440
know, the UCMR type rule of, of
sampling, you know, for impacts

424
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,240
of drinking water, Public
Utilities.

425
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,120
I mean, it's, it's not like it's
very, very prescriptive.

426
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,040
I mean, it's prescriptive and
enough that you have to go out

427
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,520
and sample like once every six
months or something.

428
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:34,920
But you can pick when you want
to do it.

429
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,400
It's not like, you know,
required time.

430
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,880
So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a little
interested to, to continue

431
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,160
looking at this in a little more
objective way so people can kind

432
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,960
of really see the full impact.
And then that's why I'm glad I

433
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,520
brought you on, because you're
helping us figure this out,

434
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,120
Emily.
Yeah, just the, the, you know,

435
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,280
the accidental, the accidental
advocate, because we, you know,

436
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,320
this isn't something that I woke
up one day or went to school

437
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,200
for, was trained for and said,
I'm, I'm going to learn about

438
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,120
tap water.
This was born out of necessity.

439
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:12,440
It was born out of crisis.
And I, I, but I think it's

440
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,080
important that, that the
communities all across the

441
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,200
country recognize that, that we
have a tap water crisis.

442
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,280
I mean, we, we really do, you
know, if we look at, at how tap

443
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,960
water is regulated, this was one
thing that was probably the most

444
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,440
shocking thing for me to learn
is that, you know, the drinking

445
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,240
when the safe Drinking Water Act
was put in place, it was

446
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,360
actually working pretty well.
And new contaminants, EPA was

447
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,200
pumping out new contaminants,
new contaminants, new

448
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:40,640
contaminants.
And then the water utility

449
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,800
industry said, whoa, we can't
keep up.

450
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,720
We don't want this unfunded
mandate.

451
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:50,840
And instead of passing a law to
make sure that these were funded

452
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,000
mandates, they passed, they
worked through Congress to amend

453
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,560
the Safe Drinking Water Act to
make it harder for the EPA to

454
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,640
issue drinking water standards.
You know, what a, what a

455
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,400
backwards approach.
What a, what a, what a bury your

456
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,720
head in the sand approach.
We are dealing with 21st century

457
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,720
chemistry and it is getting
released and it is getting

458
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,360
pumped into our environment and
our in.

459
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:24,200
In my county, our drinking water
facility had not been updated in

460
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:30,000
40, almost 5040 years. 50.
So the amount of pee fast that

461
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,200
shows up in the, in the source
water is just passing right

462
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,880
through to the tap water 'cause
there's no filtration for that,

463
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,800
you know, So we're dealing with
a lot of aging infrastructure

464
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,520
that is not keeping up with the
level of chemistry that is

465
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,400
getting allowed to be used and,
and, and misused and companies

466
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,200
that irresponsibly release the,
the toxicants, you know, so we

467
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,520
have a big issue here.
And I think utilities are on the

468
00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,280
wrong side of the fight.
I understand their desire to

469
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,480
make sure that they provide for
their community and we don't, we

470
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,440
don't push people into more
poverty or make drinking water

471
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,600
inaccessible to, to poor and low
income families and

472
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,360
disadvantaged families.
There has to be a better way

473
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,080
then.
Then show up.

474
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,800
Show up every day.
Instead of fighting for the

475
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,440
drinking water standards, you
fight for the funding for the

476
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,960
drinking water standards.
And I'm just not seeing that,

477
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,120
nor has that been happening
historically.

478
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,640
Instead, we tend to see the
utilities side with the chemical

479
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,200
industry lock and step almost
all the time.

480
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,200
Yeah, that's, that's interesting
and it is disheartening and, and

481
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,880
I'm, I'm assuming that there are
a lot of groups probably suing

482
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,160
the EPA right now for this, this
action or this, this call for

483
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,920
repealing of the the four
chemicals.

484
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,800
You know what's what have you
heard on that front across the

485
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,600
industry or across the, I guess
the groups that you're involved

486
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,280
with?
You know, I mean, I, I work with

487
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,200
our allies are the environmental
community because we have shared

488
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,480
interests, obviously clean Cape
Fear and other contaminated

489
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,120
community groups.
We don't want these exposures.

490
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,760
So one of, you know, our big
pillar is stop the exposure.

491
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,960
The environmental community says
the best way, the cheapest way,

492
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,720
the most affordable way to stop
the exposure is to make sure

493
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,200
they don't enter the environment
to begin with.

494
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,720
They don't enter the waterway,
you know, and so we we tend to

495
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,320
align ourselves in that
approach.

496
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,880
So what is industry saying?
I mean that's you'll have to

497
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,080
have industry on to find out
what industry.

498
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,280
Well, right, yeah, yeah, for
sure.

499
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,640
And and we may, we may just have
those guys on just to kind of

500
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,400
get their take on this.
You know, some of the things

501
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:50,480
I've heard though is that
industry doesn't like the fact

502
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:56,800
that the, the classification of
a hazardous constituent was, was

503
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:02,400
dropped into CERCLA because of
the joint several liability

504
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,120
clauses in CERCLA.
I mean, anybody can get pulled

505
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,320
in who even just had, you know,
basically no real reason to

506
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:10,880
have, you know, have impact on
it.

507
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,720
And, and, and I think the
biggest group of people who are,

508
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,760
are, I guess most concerned
about it are maybe the, the

509
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:23,000
solid waste companies or the
municipality utilities like that

510
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,640
who are, you know, processing
waste from the generators that

511
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,400
come to them.
They're really aggregators in

512
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,880
the, the whole grand scheme of
things.

513
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,120
They're not really the
generator.

514
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,000
But now all of a sudden, because
they're have a business that is

515
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,560
processing water or waste that
comes to them now they are

516
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,240
responsible for all the pee Foss
impacts.

517
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,720
I, I get their, their challenge.
I mean, I understand it and

518
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,120
they're like, it would be better
if it was in RECRA, you know, in

519
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,840
the Resource Conservation
Recovery Act, You know, if it

520
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,600
was there, then, you know, it's
more focused on the generator

521
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,720
and, and, and that would make a
more sense.

522
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,920
That is, is the some of the
arguments I'm hearing from

523
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,000
industry, you know, leaders in,
in in the environmental industry

524
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,320
right now.
And I kind of think, well, OK, I

525
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,720
can, I can kind of decide along
with that, that thought process

526
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,720
because, yeah, I mean, I've been
a part of Superfund projects

527
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,920
before.
And, you know, you don't want to

528
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,560
get one of those, you know, one
O 6 letters that say, hey, come

529
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,200
join the party.
We want you to, you know, start

530
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,200
paying for a cleanup when you
really didn't have much to do

531
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:27,760
with it.
And then that just cascades a

532
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,640
whole bunch of, you know,
enforcement actions and, and

533
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,480
attorneys and things like that.
And I, I get, I, I kind of see

534
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,800
that point, but we got to have
some way to make this effective

535
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,680
for, you know, the people who
are exposed and people who are

536
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,520
in the midst of processing these
types of chemicals who really

537
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,840
didn't have responsibility for,
you know, generating them or, or

538
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,600
sending them their way, you
know, So.

539
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,120
Yeah.
It's complicated.

540
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:02,280
We we absolutely advocated to
make to make T fast as it is

541
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,080
under Ricra, we felt that that
was the best, strongest path.

542
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,040
So we agree there.
So you'll have to ask the EPA

543
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,720
why the EPA didn't do that
because boy, did we.

544
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,440
Where did we hound them to do
it?

545
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,440
I don't think we're going to see
this EPA ever do that.

546
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,320
And this EPA has already
installed, this current

547
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,440
administration has already
installed 2 chemical industry

548
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,120
executives into the chemical
safety and new chemical areas.

549
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,280
These were the same people that
they had previously under the

550
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,800
first Trump administration.
You know, we're seeing a, you

551
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,960
know, a delay in, in PFOA and
PFOS and drinking water and a

552
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,080
review of the the other four
creating uncertainty.

553
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,320
You know, so we're just not
seeing a lot out of this

554
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,280
current, this current EPA that
shows us that they that they are

555
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,160
treating contaminated
communities as important as the

556
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,840
chemical industry when it comes
to having stake ownership and

557
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,160
how the EPA is run right now.
Another thing that I will, you

558
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,280
know, getting back to your your
comment of it's very important

559
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,720
on the ground community does not
necessarily understand that

560
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,160
their utility can have two
different functions.

561
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,520
That one function is they've got
the drinking water plant, the

562
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,480
drinking water facility and that
the other part of the

563
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,480
municipality has a waste
treatment system.

564
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,320
And so I will say that for the
waste treatment system, there

565
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,240
are systems in play, there are
there are programs in place,

566
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,560
there are pre treatment programs
that empower the waste, the

567
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,760
waste treatment facility to
recover costs of clean up so

568
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,000
that it doesn't fall on them.
But what we're not seeing is

569
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,760
we're not seeing those
municipalities or those interest

570
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:46,000
groups say beef up our funding,
make the standards very clear to

571
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,440
understand.
They're basically saying give me

572
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,680
a permit shield and that's
that's inappropriate.

573
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,040
And and I don't think that's the
right approach.

574
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,440
Again, they're on the wrong side
of this topic.

575
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,920
We are at Wilmington sits
downstream of the Cape Fear

576
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:03,240
River, which is the largest
river system in North Carolina.

577
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,560
And then it provides 1.5 million
residents with drinking water.

578
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:12,040
And so as the last stop before
this highly polluted river and

579
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,960
industrialized river reaches the
the ocean, there's a lot of

580
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,160
different municipalities that
have been sued for their

581
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,520
inability to handle their
pretreatment programs.

582
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,560
I mean, the laws are already
there.

583
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,800
The laws already provide for a
mechanism for them to control

584
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,720
the releases of PFAS from these
waste, you know, from these

585
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,040
waste facilities.
Yes, they may, yes, they're

586
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,880
processing it and they're
receiving it.

587
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:41,160
But again, that is their job.
Their their job is to receive

588
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,080
the waste and their job is to
treat the waste.

589
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,080
Treat the waste that they
receive appropriately and make

590
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,240
sure that it doesn't get they
don't release it into bodies of

591
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,800
water that are then also used
for drinking water down the

592
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,120
river.
You know, I'm, I'm in the middle

593
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,360
of of a treatment pretreatment
process program right now for a

594
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,880
municipality and, and, and a
client that's, you know, wanting

595
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,239
to discharge.
And you know, there's multiple

596
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,239
players in that whole scenario
too.

597
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,880
So you've got state agencies,
right, that issue the MPDS

598
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,239
permits to these municipalities.
So they have to be on board with

599
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,520
what the agency is going to
allow them to discharge to

600
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,199
receiving body of water.
And, and depending on those

601
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:32,040
states that, you know, how
aggressive they are with, you

602
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,560
know, P Foss and, and things
like that, we are starting to

603
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,239
see that some states are adding
it as a discharge limit.

604
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,679
You know, in their, their pre,
they're in their discharge

605
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:40,639
limit.
So that's good.

606
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,800
But once those permits are, you
know, established for those,

607
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,159
those, you know, discharging
PTO, WS, whatever you want, you

608
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:52,000
know, publicly owned treatment
works, then they have the

609
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,800
obligation to create the
pretreatment discharge programs

610
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,880
with the local industry that
discharges to that facility.

611
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,040
And now you bring in the city
ordinances and, and you have,

612
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:09,280
you know, municipalities at that
level that also need to work in

613
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:14,320
hand, in hand with those.
It's there's a lot of layers in

614
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,560
this that you have to establish
those limits and.

615
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,560
You got to get those people on
board.

616
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,280
To agree to those, you know,
ordinance limits for because now

617
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,000
you've got discharge limits and,
and also they're not going to

618
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,880
let you just make any level
because the agency, state

619
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,280
agencies also going to oversee
what this pretreatment programs

620
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,120
are like as well.
I mean, it, it's, it's, it can

621
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,720
be very complicated.
And I think right now a lot of

622
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:40,680
the states are just not in a
position or they don't want to

623
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,240
take a real hard stance on, on
what the, the limits are right

624
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:46,840
now with some of this PFO stuff.
And when it, because it's up and

625
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,680
up in the air and it's putting
everybody in flux.

626
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,960
And we, we, we as consultants,
me as a consultant, we're all

627
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,040
like, well, what's the
administration doing now?

628
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,920
Because, you know, how's this
going to affect our clients now?

629
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,520
And, and what do we advise our
clients?

630
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,200
Because we're still kind of
trying to get a pulse and, and

631
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,000
figure out what's the new
direction.

632
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,000
Because we had four years of the
Biden administration, we knew

633
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:11,400
kind of where it was going.
Now we're like, well, maybe

634
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,240
things are getting repealed.
We don't know.

635
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,040
Maybe they're not going to,
they're going to do away with

636
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,680
some of the environmental
regulations.

637
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,760
We don't know.
And it's, it's, it's been

638
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,440
interesting this past six
months, right?

639
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,440
Well, and, and, and that's
unfair.

640
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,800
It's unfair to every community
because when we learned about

641
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,440
PFAS in our tap water and we
joined National PFAS

642
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,040
Contamination Coalition because
then we found that there were

643
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,720
other communities just like ours
all over the country dealing

644
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:41,240
with very similar problems,
whether it be DoD shoe

645
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:45,600
manufacturer, the the customer
that purchases from DuPont and

646
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,360
Chemours, you know, all of
these, all of these communities

647
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,600
were finding excessive levels of
PFS in their tap water because

648
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,920
of the UCMR 3 or UCMR 4.
I can't remember which one it

649
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,080
was.
And, and I think what's

650
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:05,360
important to remember is the
first Trump administration

651
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,720
oversaw that and, and we worked
through the first Trump

652
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:11,320
administration and there was
forward movement.

653
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,600
There was let's address this.
Then the Biden administration

654
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,360
came and they picked it up and
said, let's further that, let's

655
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,880
go, let's go farther.
So the trajectory was always

656
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,200
forward.
Now under the second Trump

657
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,520
administration is very baffling
because the trajectory is not

658
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:27,920
forward.
It's low.

659
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,440
Let's go backwards.
And again, that is a disservice

660
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,440
to communities because this has
been a bipartisan topic in

661
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,560
almost every community I talked
to.

662
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,360
People universally recognize
they just don't want to, they

663
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,200
don't want these exposures.
You know, the only people that

664
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,880
are struggling with this are the
ones that are trying to make

665
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,080
money off of it.
Well, and and then, you know,

666
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,760
the misaligned interests, the
the municipalities that's that,

667
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,920
that have a choice today.
They have, you know, the

668
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,200
municipalities that have a
choice to make, which is do we

669
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,920
address this hard topic or do we
pretend it doesn't exist and and

670
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,960
continue with inaction, inaction
at the cost.

671
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,920
And that cost will still burden
your community or it'll burden

672
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,600
the your neighboring
communities, but it is still a

673
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,720
cost and it is still a burden.
Oh yeah, 100% it is.

674
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:21,520
And what's, what, what, what are
you hearing from some of the

675
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,080
legal, you know, groups that
you've been kind of supporting

676
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,320
and or you know, you know,
working side by side with?

677
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,280
Have you heard anything from
that group who are challenging

678
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,320
some of this these rules?
Yeah, Well, we are interveners.

679
00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:41,360
You know, we partnered with
Earth Justice and we intervened

680
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,480
when when the chemical industry
and the utility association

681
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,520
started suing the EPA over the
the new drinking water standards

682
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:54,120
last year, we filed to intervene
and we got, we got approved to

683
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,480
to become participants in that
lawsuit.

684
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,440
So we're following that right
now and, you know, nothing has

685
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,760
been decided.
So we're still kind of in

686
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,480
conversation, interestingly
enough, you know, you know, I

687
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,640
mentioned earlier that our own
community has been dealing with

688
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,520
a very long lawsuit to try and
get the polluter directly to

689
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,680
cover its fair share of
treatment upgrades and costs.

690
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,240
And we had a very interesting
development happened earlier

691
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:23,800
this year where Camours filed a
motion to seal they did not want

692
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:27,760
Wilmington's Water District to
have their brief, their

693
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,280
briefings and all the supporting
documents available for public

694
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,000
view.
And you know, this is just

695
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,240
classic industry playbook, which
is hide, hide the data, hide the

696
00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:41,880
toxicity, hide the data, hide
the wrongdoing, hide it all, you

697
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,080
know, and that's really
unfortunate.

698
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,360
And so we worked and we got 1500
signatures within our community

699
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,400
to push back and beg the judge
to to dismiss that.

700
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,520
Then and were you successful?
Well, we're waiting so that you

701
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,400
know, this is litigation.
OK, OK.

702
00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:02,000
It's ongoing litigation, so
there's really not a lot we can

703
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,040
say.
There's not a lot a lot of

704
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,120
people are probably saying with
ongoing litigation.

705
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,480
Right, right, right, right.
Well, interesting.

706
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,280
You know, if we change gears a
bit here, you know, I know that

707
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,680
there's been some good stuff I
saw you on was the ABC Nightly

708
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,520
News or something like that.
Tell me a little bit about that

709
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,560
experience.
Yeah, CBSCBS Evening News Live I

710
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:30,640
think was covering when the EPA
made the announcement that they

711
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,800
were going to rescind the PFAS
drinking water standards.

712
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,440
And so that was just a super
quick segment.

713
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,800
It went so fast.
But it was it was nice to to to

714
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,600
have that platform in that
elevation because this is

715
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,320
clearly a topic that impacts
millions of Americans.

716
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,320
I think the EPA had estimated
150 million Americans or have

717
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,560
PFAS in their tap water.
And so these drinking water

718
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:54,880
standards are incredibly
important.

719
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,560
Another thing that's important
for us to remember that kind of

720
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,920
gets lost in the nuance and
details of it is that, you know,

721
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,080
the EPA kind of was was thinking
ahead last year when they

722
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:05,800
created these drinking water
standards.

723
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,560
There's the Co benefit of, you
know, if we set these really

724
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,200
health protective standards for
PFOA and PFOS, which is

725
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,720
supported by science, you know,
the best available science did

726
00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:19,520
say that these these were the
levels at which we should treat

727
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,480
the that there would did it.
There be a Co benefit of other

728
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,880
unregulated contaminants that
those would also get filtered

729
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,840
out and cleaned out.
So we were just improving the

730
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,960
quality of American drinking
water.

731
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,560
I mean, who doesn't want that?
Again, you know, it's let's make

732
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,040
it affordable.
Like we 100% agree community

733
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,800
should have access to the money.
Where is that conversation

734
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,160
happening in Congress right now?
Does the big beautiful bill have

735
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,160
any funding for for communities
to upgrade their drinking water?

736
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,600
That's a good question and I, I
have not, you know, heard that,

737
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,320
haven't spoken to any
congressman or Congresswoman

738
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,240
about that, but that would be
interesting to know.

739
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,320
And and you do bring up an
interesting point about, you

740
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,960
know, the the Co benefit of
treating PFOS and PFOA that

741
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,360
you're going to also kind of
catch all these other chemicals.

742
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,680
Do you think that is one of the
reasons why EP as want to pull

743
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,160
this back a bit because they
already kind of feel like it's

744
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,000
going to get baked into treating
those chemicals that they're not

745
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,480
regulating if they're going to
keep the the two that they have?

746
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,520
Well, I don't, I don't think you
can treat for PFOA and PFOS

747
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,440
only.
I think, you know, we've, we've

748
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,560
always advocated that you need
to treat PFS as a class.

749
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,800
There are 14,000 different PFAS
known.

750
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,840
There's hundreds of them that
are in commercial use.

751
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,160
We're not even talking about the
ultra short chains PFAS.

752
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,360
And so you know, the end, we
partnered with the NRDCA couple

753
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,360
of years ago and we did a tap
water study when the EPA issued

754
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,800
their UCMR 5, which had a what,
like 20-9 something sort of PFAS

755
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,320
that utilities were all supposed
to test for.

756
00:42:57,240 --> 00:43:02,840
And, and we showed that, you
know, we used Eurofens 70 method

757
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:08,360
to just try and see how many
unmonitored PFAS were showing up

758
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,400
in tap water.
And we were so shocked that the,

759
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,160
the majority of the samples came
back with this, this compound

760
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,360
called PFPRA and it's an ultra
short chain TFAS.

761
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,440
And there then there's TFA,
which is another ultra short

762
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,960
chain PFAS that we're starting
to see an extreme levels showing

763
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,960
up in tap water.
And I think German environmental

764
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:34,240
regulators actually just issued
toxicity profile on TFA linking

765
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:37,600
it to reproductive issues.
You know, again, so here's you

766
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,600
know what, while we're talking
about PFOAPFOS, which is kind of

767
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,440
grandma's PFAS and then the EP
as looking at the PFAS that

768
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,120
we're currently making, some
that we're currently making,

769
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,040
some that that we're not, we
still aren't talking about the

770
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,040
ultra short chain PFAS.
And the one thing that we did

771
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:59,040
learn through our whole journey
is that you can't just treat for

772
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,640
PFOA and PFOS because if you
only look at PFOA and PFOS,

773
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,240
you're going to miss a community
like ours.

774
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:11,000
Our issue was not PFOA and PFOS.
Our issue was an unmonitored and

775
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,200
unregulated Gen.
X and hundreds of other PFAS

776
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,720
that we did not have test
standards for that utilities did

777
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:21,320
not know to look for.
It took, you know, it took

778
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,720
academic researchers to to do
some forensic analysis and try

779
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:29,560
and understand, you know, like
reverse ninja science to try and

780
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,040
figure out what is in this
water.

781
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,920
So, you know, it seems like
we're still on the forefront of

782
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:42,560
still educating the pop, you
know, the population and, and,

783
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,840
and at large.
I don't know how many people I

784
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:47,960
talk to.
I go, hey, have you seen that

785
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:49,640
movie Dark Waters?
And they're like, what are you

786
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:52,240
talking about?
And I'm, and I talk to people

787
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:55,400
that are in the environmental
industry and I'm like, shame on

788
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,160
you guys.
How could you not know about

789
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:58,960
this movie?
This is what we do in the

790
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,360
environmental industry.
And this is totally related.

791
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,280
Like I, I said, oh, have you
seen Erin Brockovich?

792
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,600
And a lot of them go, Oh yeah,
yeah, yeah, I've seen that one,

793
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,480
you know, but that's been out a
while, right?

794
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,360
But unfortunately, a lot of
people still haven't seen Dark

795
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,280
Waters.
And I promote it constantly.

796
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:22,520
You know, we have Robert coming
to be our keynote speaker at the

797
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,920
EHS Hazmat Summit in September.
We're so excited to have him be

798
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,240
our keynote speaker.
And I know that now this new,

799
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,320
this new rule that's being
rebuilt is going to be, you

800
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,200
know, front and center as part
of this conversation that he

801
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,120
will be talking about in his, in
his keynote speech.

802
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,720
And we were able to get him.
We're so excited to have him and

803
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,920
he's a big draw for us.
And so we're we're so thankful.

804
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,120
But, you know, I still feel like
it's, it's the outreach, it's

805
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,240
still the education that we're
still really way behind on.

806
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,880
Would you agree with that?
Well, yeah, and I think there's

807
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,120
a couple of things that played
out.

808
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:01,640
You know, we had, we had Mark
come and be a guest speaker when

809
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,040
we did 2 screenings of Dark
Water.

810
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:09,640
So it premiered at the at the
end of 2019.

811
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:17,560
And yeah, and we, we had Mark
come at the beginning of 2020.

812
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,960
It, it was like one of the last
events we did before the COVID

813
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,640
shutdown.
So I think we have to remember

814
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,920
that there was a massive global
disruption that happened, I

815
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,080
think really impacted the
momentum that Dark Waters was

816
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,600
building.
Then we also have to remember

817
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,240
that we are definitely in a
different news environment.

818
00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:39,280
You know, where, where the, you
used to just have a couple of

819
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,720
different methods to get the
same message out.

820
00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:45,280
Now there's it's exponential.
There's a bazillion different

821
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,120
methods to get information out
and everybody's siloed into

822
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,960
their, their favorite social
media channel.

823
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,720
And there's only so much time
you have in the day to absorb

824
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,040
news.
And I think this is what this is

825
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,520
what society is struggling with.
And we see the symptoms of this

826
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,640
struggle, this this chronic, you
know, fractured news news cycle

827
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,520
happening.
And some people appreciate that.

828
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,520
Some people feel like I didn't
just want one-size-fits-all

829
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,240
news.
I want to be able to pick and

830
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:15,040
choose my news.
And I understand that and I

831
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,160
respect that.
But we definitely are missing

832
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,600
fairness and reporting act.
You know, we've that expired.

833
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,760
So the ability to require
journalists to report, you know,

834
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,240
report both sides at the same
news story.

835
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:35,080
I mean, that guy, that guy
that's, you know, expired and

836
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,040
Congress decided to never pick
it back up.

837
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:41,040
You know, we're, we went into 24
hour cable news in the 90s and

838
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,320
now we've got this accelerated
social media where social media

839
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,080
is the news now.
Yeah, no, you're right.

840
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:53,400
I mean and, and and people are
digesting their information in

841
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,840
one minute clips or two one, you
know, 2 minute clips and that's

842
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,080
it.
They they watch shorts and

843
00:47:58,080 --> 00:47:59,680
that's it.
You know, they're scrolling and

844
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,560
getting going down the rabbit
hole on Instagram, you know, or,

845
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,240
or TikTok, and that's that's how
they're getting their their

846
00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:07,600
nose.
They are.

847
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,680
And you know what, honestly,
that's the direction we're

848
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,320
headed in.
I wouldn't say there's anything

849
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,640
wrong with it, but I would say
is that it's really important

850
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,800
that everybody start paying
attention to that Instead of

851
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,880
fighting it, Learn how to
embrace it because those that

852
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,080
are embracing it early and
quickly you're seeing or are,

853
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,040
are, are reaping the benefits
and the rewards from it, whether

854
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,240
that's right or wrong.
I think another thing that we

855
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:30,880
also need to remember too is,
is, is information is spreading

856
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,680
faster.
You know, I mean, that is one of

857
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,680
the benefits.
And so we actually, you know, if

858
00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:38,040
we want to take a step back and
go, how is awareness?

859
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,880
Yeah, we at 100% need to keep
raising awareness.

860
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,320
But I think it's pretty darn
impressive that when we woke up

861
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:45,880
eight years ago and learned
about Gen.

862
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,560
X, no one knew what Gen.
X was.

863
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,800
And everybody just talking about
PFOA and PFOS and the span of a

864
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,040
few short years, we had people
talking about the class of

865
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,440
chemistry, PFASP fast.
We had them talking about that.

866
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,400
We shifted that narrative.
And then in a few short years

867
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,120
after that, we had the EPA
issuing first ever drinking

868
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,880
water standards for 6P fast,
including Gen.

869
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,080
X.
And this is an EPA that works

870
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:18,120
within a broken system that
hadn't in decades issued a

871
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,600
drinking water standard without
an act of Congress.

872
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,400
And so I think this is pretty
impressive, pretty powerful, and

873
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,560
it's a big testament to the
level of community support,

874
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:32,160
bipartisan support, and the
National PFAS Contamination

875
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,160
Coalition's work to try and make
this happen in partnering with

876
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,640
allies, you know, and, and the
dedication of professional

877
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,760
advocates like EWG and NRDC and
Earth Justice and Center for

878
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,280
Environmental Health, you know,
all the big ones.

879
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,960
Mind the store.
Toxic free future.

880
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:52,720
These.
All of these organizations

881
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:56,880
coming together and rallying
around this immediate, you know,

882
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,560
important threat of PFAS
exposures.

883
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:06,440
It is a huge it, it really is
our lifetimes #1 number one

884
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,280
environmental problem, aside
from, you know, you've got not

885
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,440
to disrespect climate change and
microplastics.

886
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,080
We're dealing with the level of
chemistry that's not going away,

887
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,360
that it's been so unmanaged and,
and so much in action has

888
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,720
occurred with it that we now
have scientists say that PFAS

889
00:50:21,720 --> 00:50:24,040
has reached the planetary
boundary, which means when it

890
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,320
rains, it's likely raining PFAS.
And it will be for some time,

891
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,280
because again, these don't
naturally degrade.

892
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:36,120
Wow, yeah.
I mean, so the fight goes on,

893
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:41,400
the education goes on.
We we all need to kind of stay

894
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,600
on top of this.
And, you know, I know here on

895
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,440
the, on the, the show with this
platform, we're going to

896
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,200
continue to educate the
listeners and the ET nation

897
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:54,000
about, you know, what the
impacts are of PFOS and, and the

898
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,600
regulatory, you know, changes
and, you know, the affected

899
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,400
communities like Cape Fear,
clean Cape Fear.

900
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,240
And, you know, I, I, I just feel
like we've got a great

901
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:08,200
opportunity to continue being
one piece of that media, you

902
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,160
know, segment we, if you're
following us on YouTube,

903
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,840
obviously, even on our podcast
channels as well, but YouTube,

904
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,200
but our shorts are getting lots
of, you know, watches now.

905
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,160
We decided we'd start hitting a
lot of shorts.

906
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:26,200
So just posting the entire
episode, figuring that if we did

907
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,760
that, it would drive people to
watch the entire episode, which

908
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,960
we're seeing numbers and you
know, go up in there too.

909
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,200
But our shorts are just going
off the off the charts right

910
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:37,440
now.
It's it's amazing.

911
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,960
And so that's exciting because
now it's like we're having more

912
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:45,240
constant exposure in in
impressions and having a greater

913
00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:48,680
impact than just someone
listening for 1/2 hour or an

914
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,360
hour to a full episode.
They're getting that daily dose

915
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,240
right.
And so, you know, we're doing

916
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:57,120
everything we can too on the
show.

917
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,000
And and and it's people like
you, Emily, they come onto the

918
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:04,120
show that, you know, remind us
why this is such an important

919
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,600
issue.
And I really thank you for for

920
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,520
being, you know, willing to come
back on the show.

921
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:13,880
You're such an amazing person.
And talk a little bit about that

922
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,760
little.
I don't know what you'd call it,

923
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,800
a promo story or about
educating, you know, the kids at

924
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,000
the, you know, about P Foss.
That was with Mark Ruffalo that

925
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,320
put out a while back.
And I think you had him on your

926
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,200
show or your she was on you or
on their show.

927
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,280
I don't know.
I saw some, yeah.

928
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,520
Tell me talk a little bit about
that.

929
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,120
Yeah.
Oh, that was that this is, you

930
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,240
know, getting back to the, the
idea of awareness and how do we

931
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:40,480
keep building awareness.
And so the National P Fast

932
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,960
Contamination Coalition
partnered with Keen Footwear and

933
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,520
Keen Footwear is pretty special.
So we're looking for market

934
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,240
drivers.
You know, we, we know that

935
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:50,720
communities don't want P fast in
their product, but we're also

936
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:53,440
learning that consumer brands
don't necessarily want it

937
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,400
either.
And Keen was one of the first

938
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,240
consumer brands to voluntarily
remove P Fast from their

939
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:02,240
products, intentionally added
PFS from their products.

940
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:08,360
So we, we partnered with them.
They have kind of a, you know,

941
00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:13,120
in a film effect side of their,
of their brand where they make

942
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,000
awareness videos to just kind of
explain the footprint that

943
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,000
they're leaving on the world.
And so Max Rami is this

944
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,240
filmmaker, but he's also just a
really amazing watercolor

945
00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:25,240
artist.
And he did the cutest little

946
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:27,880
movie.
It's about 10 minutes and he's

947
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,120
talking to his two year old son
and he's explaining what the

948
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,920
term forever means.
And then as he explains it, he

949
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,280
just kind of goes through and
and they talk about P fast, you

950
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,960
know, forever chemicals.
And we helped.

951
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,400
It was really cool experience
because the National P fast

952
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,640
Contamination Coalition helped
connect Keene to Mark Ruffalo.

953
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,320
And so, you know, we were able
to kind of watch this and guide

954
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,120
this this film through the whole
process.

955
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:55,520
And so I just had an amazing
ride, was able to be there for

956
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,920
the premiere of the film in
Denver at Outside Fest.

957
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:03,440
And so I participated in that.
And then Mark and Max and I did

958
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,200
an Instagram Live last week
where we just sat and and kind

959
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,840
of talked about the project.
It's called A little Story about

960
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,280
forever.
You can find it on Keene's

961
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,800
YouTube channel.
You can on it social media.

962
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,720
I've, I've shared it with the,
the ET nation on our channel

963
00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:20,760
too.
And we'll, we'll share it again.

964
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:22,040
But it was it was, it was well
done.

965
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,880
Absolutely amazing.
And the little army of goodness,

966
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,240
you know we was.
It was a sweet nod to the

967
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:29,840
national PVS contamination, the
Coalition.

968
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,520
We are the little army of
goodness, and so is everybody

969
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,920
else in this fight.
So if you're trying to stop PFS

970
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,000
exposures, know your health
risks, and make the polluter

971
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,400
pay, you are a part of this.
You are the little army of

972
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,560
goodness.
Well, ET Nation, you're part of

973
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:46,080
the little army of goodness,
too.

974
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:47,240
There you go.
That's great.

975
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,920
You know, this has been so good.
I mean, yeah, we're, we're super

976
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:57,560
excited to see Mr. Blots in
September for, and I get to meet

977
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,880
him in person because I didn't
meet him in person before.

978
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:00,960
And now I get to meet him in
person.

979
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:02,360
I'm, I'm pretty excited about
it.

980
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,200
And I get to introduce him as
our keynote speaker at the

981
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,720
conference.
So I'm super stoked about it.

982
00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:10,960
He's amazing, you know, like
there's, there's people that

983
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,200
have courage.
You know, we talk about, about

984
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,560
having courage a lot and in this
fight and being as persistent as

985
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:22,000
PFAS and boy is, you know, like
he leads by example.

986
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,160
He, we wouldn't be here today,
honestly, if it wasn't for his

987
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:30,920
courage and, and, and hearing a
farmer's concern and working to

988
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,200
do what was right instead of
what was easy.

989
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,120
And that's where we're at today.
We look at this drinking water

990
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,240
fight, you know, we're, we're
doing what's right.

991
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:40,640
We are.
And, and I encourage every

992
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,040
utility out there, don't do
what's easy.

993
00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:46,200
Do what's right, because that's
what your community desperately

994
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,280
wants, whether they know it or
not.

995
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,720
Yeah, no, that's a great, that's
a great, great thought there and

996
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:59,120
and a great parting shot, Emily.
I mean again, you know, three

997
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:04,600
time guest, you get the record.
So thank you for showing up and

998
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,400
doing your part and helping the,
the podcast grow.

999
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:10,760
You know, we've been doing this
now.

1000
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,200
It's hard to believe, Emily,
over five years we've been on

1001
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:15,760
the pot.
We've been doing this for over 5

1002
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,360
years now.
And you know, it's just been

1003
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,200
just a labor of love in a, in a
lot of ways.

1004
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:28,120
And what I get out of it is the
just such great connections with

1005
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,160
people like you and other.
It just gets me jazzed up to go

1006
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:36,840
do these podcasts because I meet
so many amazing people and it's

1007
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,560
just a blast.
And so we get to educate and put

1008
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,760
put the shine a light on people
doing great things and in our,

1009
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:44,920
you know, country and around the
world.

1010
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:50,120
So thank you again for joining.
We will put all your contact

1011
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,480
information on the website, on
the post.

1012
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,600
I've got all your details.
So we'll get this out probably

1013
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,240
next week and we'll promote
this.

1014
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:04,520
And is there anything you can
say at the last minute here that

1015
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,840
if someone wants to reach out
and support anything you're

1016
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:12,640
doing, how can they do that?
Yeah, follow us on social media.

1017
00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:15,240
We're at Clean Cape Fear.
Visit our website,

1018
00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:18,720
cleancapefear.com and subscribe
to our newsletter where we send

1019
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,440
out regular action alerts when
something's pressing.

1020
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,800
Follow the National Pfast
Contamination Coalition.

1021
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,960
You can find them at
pfastproject.net and you can

1022
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,520
follow that I'm on social media
at at Pfast Coalition.

1023
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,120
All right, Emily, thank you so
much.

1024
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,400
And we'll be looking forward to
seeing you down the road and

1025
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,800
continue our dialogue as we, you
know, something else interesting

1026
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,240
pops up.
Awesome.

1027
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:45,840
I appreciate this is always fun.
Thank you.

1028
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:47,800
Thanks for listening and
watching the show.

1029
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,360
If you enjoyed the show then
please share it with your

1030
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,680
friends and coworkers on social
media and tell somebody in

1031
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:55,840
person.
Thanks for being with us, ET

1032
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:56,480
Nation.