Breaking Down Human Organizational Performance with The HOP Nerd, Sam Goodman

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If we're operating under this
idea that our goal is to make

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sure that nothing bad ever
happens, like ever, because if

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anything bad ever happens, even
if it's a beast bee sting, we

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suck at safety.
I don't think that's true.

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I I just can't see how that's
true Because if you put that in

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the context of real life and
work fits in the bucket of real

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life, as much as we like to
pretend that work is not real

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life, it's still the world.
We're just living in the world.

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Bad things happen.
Welcome to the Environmental

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Transformation Podcast, where we
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I'm your host, Sean Grady, and

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Welcome to the Environmental
Transformation podcast.

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I'm your host, Sean Grady.
Today's guest is Sam Goodman.

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Sam is the Hop Nerd.
He owns his own, runs his own

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podcast.
He's a safety professional and

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he is working to, you know,
really advanced safety practices

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and philosophies within the
industry.

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He has his own consulting
services and things.

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So let me think here.
He's a speaker, he's an advisor,

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he's a consultant, he's a hop
practitioner and he's probably

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the hop nerd.
And if you haven't checked out

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his podcast T Nation, I highly
recommend you go to, you know,

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you can find him on all the big
podcast channels, but also

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probably his website and we'll
put links to that in the bio on

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the website so you can get that
as well.

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He's the creator of Starting
Points, operationally curious

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questions.
And I saw one of your videos on

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this stamp, so I'll let you kind
of share a little bit about that

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too.
That's pretty cool stuff.

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I really like it.
And he's developed this

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framework because he saw a need
for simple, powerful tools to

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ignite genuine operational
curiosity and learning, focusing

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on learning within daily
operations and anticipating

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challenges rather than solely
reacting to after events.

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So, Sam, welcome to the show.
I love your comedic commentary

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on safety.
It is an absolute riot for

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people who are in this industry
who know safety processes

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program.
So thank you.

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Yeah, man, absolutely,
absolutely pumped to be here, to

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get to spend a little bit of
time with you.

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I was so excited, so excited
before before starting that I

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put on my nicest Warren Zevon
T-shirt for this.

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And this only comes out for very
specific occasions.

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So that should tell you I'm I'm
here for it, man.

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Yeah, All right.
All right, man, I'm loving it.

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I'm loving it.
Well, hey, you know, a lot of

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people that listen to the
podcast, we're all industry

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professionals or, you know,
people living there working in

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the, in the industry at
different aspects with that

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sustainability, safety,
environmental compliance for me,

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education, you know, you name
it, we sustainability error.

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I think I said that first.
So we, we got all kinds of

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people that listen, safety is
always a big topic and some

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people may not know what hop
really is.

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Why don't you give us a deep
dive on what is hop?

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Because you're the hop nerd.
You're the expert in this space.

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Educate the ET nation.
Yeah, absolutely.

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So I think the first place to
start is right here where I kind

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of found my way into human and
organizational performance from

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the safety profession.
And the reason why I bring that

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up is because I, I think
nowadays I would describe myself

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a bit as a recovering safety
professional by something,

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something kinda somewhere in
that space.

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And I grew up towards human and
organizational performance.

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But before I even knew that it
was called human and

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organizational performance or
safety differently or safety

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too, or any of these hundred
other labels.

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We want to put on doing things a
bit differently, right?

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While living in that safety
profession and really becoming

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frustrated with our approaches
and in particular frustrated

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with the way that we were
treating the people that we were

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supposed to care the most about.
Which obviously the end users of

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that system, right, those sharp
end folks out there that day in

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and day out right carry the true
the true opportunity for death

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and dismemberment right with.
Yeah, they're on the front

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lines.
Right, those folks, right.

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And so I kind of stumbled my way
into this originally by focusing

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on really humanizing our
approaches to the safety of

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work.
And long, long before I

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discovered the amazing work of
people like Todd Conklin or

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Sydney Decker or some of these
other kind of really big voices

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out there in this world.
So I guess to get a bit to a bit

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of that definition, because my
definition has evolved over time

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from from where we started
there, where I started

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personally there to, to where I
am currently.

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Along the way, I've heard a lot
of different definitions of Hop

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and none of them, none of them
really wrong.

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They're all pretty accurate
definitions that sound like

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human and organizational
performance is a scientific

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based approach to insert
something here, right?

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Usually something around the
idea of reducing air, reducing

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outcome, improving safety,
etcetera, etcetera.

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Where I've really landed on this
is this idea that what human and

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organizational performance means
to me, It's a collection of

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better ideas, beliefs, and
assumptions from diverse and

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varying sources that we apply
through the lens of a core set

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of principles.
Now, a couple reasons for that

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definition.
We pull from all over the map in

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this world.
I mentioned those names.

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Those things tend to get lumped
together in our world when

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they're kind of different or
they're they're they're

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different schools of thought
around these things.

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So we pull from those things
that sound like safety too, or

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resilience engineering or HRO,
right?

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We pull from those things.
We pull from where we have been,

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what's labeled nowadays,
traditional safety, right?

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There's a lot of great stuff
that we've done.

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Not all of it sucks.
There's a lot of good stuff that

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we've done.
We pull that in.

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We pull in these different ideas
and then we, we lead with that.

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We lead with that through those
5 core principles of human and

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organization performance.
That air is normal.

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Context drives behavior.
Learning is vital, right?

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Working all the way through our
principles, we, we, we lead with

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those things.
Now to continue on this, I

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always like to add in the point
though, the, the OK, but why?

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What's the point in moving from
this more traditional way of

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doing things to this new view or
more humanized approach to doing

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things?
So the dot dot dot on the end of

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that sounds something like this.
It's because when we lead with

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these better ideas, beliefs, and
assumptions, when we lead in

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this more humanized approach, we
create an environment we're

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learning and improving as
possible, meaning that we create

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an environment where people can
tell us the truth, which is.

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A.
Really big.

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Exactly.
Which is a really big stinking

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deal in our world, right?
If, if I can't share with you

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the stuff that leaves me a
little bit on edge, just

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naturally, because it's
inconvenient, operational truth,

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it's scary.
Something went wrong.

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I got a Boo Boo, that kind of
stuff.

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Smash my finger.
Sorry.

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If, if I can't share that with
you, how in the world do we

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expect our organizations to ever
truly meaningfully get better?

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It's nearly impossible, right?
The only things that we learn

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about in those more extreme
situations where I can't tell

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you the truth, sounds a lot like
the stuff that I just can't hide

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then.
So how do we create that

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environment?
And we found that leading with

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those more humanized approaches,
the output is that if we really

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want to zoom out, if we really
want to zoom out with all of

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those definitions and all this
rambling that I've given you

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around that what that truly
means.

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The point of human and
organizational performance is to

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create environments which we can
operationally learn, improve and

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innovate over time.
Well, OK.

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That's that's the goal.
That that's good.

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I mean, and I I like that
approach, or at least it sounds

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great.
So let's let's like maybe level

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set a bit for the listener.
What would you consider our

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traditional safety approaches
that are not hop that people

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would recognize?
We're like, oh, OK, I know that

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system or I understand now where
he's coming from.

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Yeah.
So the, the most traditional way

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that I can describe this to you,
the the absolute most

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traditional way sounds something
like this.

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And this is what resonates with
I think most people.

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If you've worked in any safety
focused industry, loosely put,

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you're going to know this one,
right?

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Because we've lived through it.
It sounds like something bad

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happens and what follows that is
blame, shame, retrain and likely

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more of the same.
All right, So something goes

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wrong the first thing out of her
mouth and those more traditional

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focus systems sounds something
like who was it?

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The very next questions are
going to sound like, well, how

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bad was it or how bad could it
have been?

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And then the follow up question
of that is going to sound a lot

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like what does that person
deserve based off of how bad it

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was or how bad it could have
been?

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It's something that I usually
refer to as the hamster wheel of

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safety mediocrity.
We're just kind of running and

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running and running with this
cycle.

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The blame, shame, retrain,
blame, shame, retrain people are

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the problem.
If we can just fix those

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stinking people, safety utopia
will be ours.

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We'll we'll finally get there,
right?

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We're on the the other side of
that right.

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If you back to bringing in these
these these these ideas

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together, if you want to go down
that rabbit hole of what's

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called safety differently, you
know, we think pretty much

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exactly the opposite of what I
just described.

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We don't view people as the
problem within our

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organizations.
In fact, we view people as the

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solution.
People aren't the problem to

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control.
They're our problem solvers, and

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that's an entire entirely
different approach.

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That's a good little spin there.
I love that approach.

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It's.
An entirely different approach

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as compared to, hey, you messed
up, all your fault, right,

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Right.
This wasn't a we thing.

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Success.
It's funny, right?

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It's funny that when our
organizations succeed, that's

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always a we did that thing.
But as soon as things go wrong,

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that's a you did that thing.
Yeah.

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When when really and truly both
of those things are both we

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things those are we thanks.
So when we go down this path of

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people are the solution, we
start to understand that we'll

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wait a second.
Blame, shame and retrain really

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not going to help us all that
much, right?

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This this doing more of the same
thing, the harder expecting a

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different result, blaming
harder, shaming harder,

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retraining harder standing down
harder, you know, doing all the

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stuff about our normal playbook.
We know the result that that

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gets.
We, we, we know where that takes

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this.
Hello ET Nation, I want to thank

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00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,520
you for listening to the
podcast.

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00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,920
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equipment and nationwide
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232
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company, visit
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00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,200
That's cascade-env.com.
I'd also like to give a shout

234
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out to Enthalpy Analytical if
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To learn more about Enthalpy

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Analytical, visit
theirwebsite@enthalpy.com.

243
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,920
That's enthalpy.com.
Finally, I'd like to recognize

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00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,120
Zappa Stewart, the leading
provider of super absorbent

245
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246
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247
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248
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250
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251
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give Zappa Stewart a call.
To learn more about Zappa

252
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Stewart, go to
mywebsite@seankgrady.com.

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00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,000
That's Sean K grady.com.
Now let's dive back into this

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00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,000
interview.
Well, I mean, a lot of a lot of

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00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,920
companies are still ingrained
with like these traditional

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00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,560
safety approaches, you know,
yeah, absolutely based safety 12

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00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:57,840
life saving rules or, or, you
know, saving rules in general.

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And, you know, doing your
tailgate safety meetings and,

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00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,680
and doing near miss reports and
observations on a regular basis.

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I mean, all these things are
what I would, I, I, I in my

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00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,400
mind, I'm thinking these are
traditional safety programming.

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00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,280
Roughly, yeah, right.
Is that accurate?

263
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,200
Yeah, pretty.
Yeah, I'm going to say accurate

264
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,920
because I am far from an
absolutist with most things.

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00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,560
I genuinely believe that most
things in our world should

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include a label that says
something along the lines of can

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00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,360
be used for good and evil,
right?

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So good or evil.
And what I mean by that is, is

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do I think an observation
program, an observation card is

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00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,080
from the deepest, darkest pits
of hell?

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00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,800
I absolutely do not Do I?
Do I see?

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00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,120
Do I see them useful?
Absolutely.

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00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,360
When applied with the right
assumptions around them.

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I've seen them work well for
many organizations.

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00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,280
So though that's why I say
roughly is some of those things

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00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,320
that fit in that box.
It's not that they're just

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00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,560
terrible, awful things.
It's that when we, when we form

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00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,920
better assumptions about the
people entrusted to our care,

279
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,040
the people on the front line,
when we start to view them as

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00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,440
problem solvers rather than the
problem to manage.

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00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,640
When we start to shift how we
think about those things, we

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00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,160
start thinking a lot less about
how to do observations to them

283
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,600
and we start thinking a lot more
about how to do observations

284
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,600
with them, which is a big shift.
That's putting us on that adult

285
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,360
to adult playing field, which is
where I think we have to be with

286
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,040
every adult in our life, work or
otherwise.

287
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,320
That's.
That's that's where we.

288
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:32,760
Need to be right.
Yeah.

289
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,680
But you mentioned something that
that I always find interesting

290
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,320
because it is a big one of most
traditional safety programs.

291
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,680
And it's what you said, it's the
safety 10 commandments or the

292
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,440
six golden rules, right?
Or the 17 golden rules.

293
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,800
I was in AI was in an
organization the other day

294
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,960
spending some time with them and
they pulled out one that they

295
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,880
had used some years back.
And it was like the 25 golden

296
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,920
rules, right?
And let's, let's boil that down.

297
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,960
I think most people will know
what that means, but to, to put

298
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,160
it in very clear language, what
the 12 commandments of safety

299
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,000
means or the 10 golden rules
means, it means that these are

300
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,720
the things that if for any
reason, no context, black or

301
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,280
white, if we find you even
thinking about being in

302
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,480
violation of these things, you
will be fired on the spot.

303
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,400
That's, that's what, that's what
they are, right?

304
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,840
That's what they are.
Yeah, I, I, I, I let me stop you

305
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,320
there because I had a client
that I've worked for for many

306
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,640
years.
And it was the, the, you know,

307
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,440
the 12 commandments though, so
speak.

308
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,120
And if you get caught on your
cell phone on their property,

309
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,320
you're fired.
I mean, it was like, yeah.

310
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,440
Really.
I mean, we take them serious,

311
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,560
real serious.
So serious that the only thing

312
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,440
that we will, the only thing
that will slow us down from

313
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,320
getting you off site once we
discover that is we might stop

314
00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,680
and put you in the stocks out
front for everybody to throw

315
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,680
stuff at you for a minute before
before, before we send you off

316
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:04,160
site.
Right.

317
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,599
And the the reason why I bring
this one up, Sean, is that it's

318
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:11,720
a it's a great way to highlight
the difference in some of this

319
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,560
thinking, right?
Yeah.

320
00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:19,240
So a question that I tend to ask
when people show me their,

321
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,560
they're 10 rules, right?
Or they give me the card that's

322
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,880
usually on a lanyard that says
carry this with you, 'cause you

323
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,280
know that's going to be bad.
The question that I tend to ask

324
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,840
when people ask me what I think
about their rules, it sounds

325
00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,280
more like this.
Do you want to know more or know

326
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,640
less about the things that kill
people in your organization?

327
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:38,880
Because that's really what those
rules are.

328
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,880
Let's let's, let's say that we
have taken the 12 heavy hitters

329
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,680
from our site, our company, our
locations and we have put them

330
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,520
on the list.
These 12 things that we know a

331
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,400
lot of times from lived
experience kill and horrifically

332
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,680
maim the people that work for us
and we have put those on a list.

333
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,320
So to get back to the question
though, do we want to know more

334
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,000
or less about those things that
kill and maim our employees?

335
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:15,160
If we take those 12 things and
now we put this big hairy

336
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:20,400
monster of if for any reason,
even if with great logic, even

337
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,320
if you just stumble into
violating anything, any of these

338
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,240
things and anywhere in between.
There's major repercussion.

339
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,880
Even if you have just a close
call with one of these things,

340
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,000
you're not going to work here
anymore or ever again.

341
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,760
How likely am I, as that
employee that finds myself in a

342
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:45,480
confined space experiencing a
close call when I crawl out of

343
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,400
that hole and I go, should I say
something about this?

344
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,080
My answer is going to be Nope,
never.

345
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,320
Even if there was no outcome,
even if there it was no doing of

346
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,960
my own.
If I have any any concern that I

347
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,920
found myself on the wrong side
of one of those rules, what

348
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,800
you're going to get out of me is
absolute silence.

349
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,240
The problem with that is, is
that problem doesn't go away.

350
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,800
The problem is, is that
typically near miss incident?

351
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,680
Other thing, I didn't just go
out there making bad decisions.

352
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,280
Almost always we discovered that
people found themselves at the

353
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,560
very end of a long line of
problems, problems that need to

354
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:34,200
be fixed.
They were the unlucky chosen one

355
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,360
that drew that lottery number to
win the event.

356
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,880
And instead of instead of
learning and going far deeper

357
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,080
than what you messed up, that's
where we tend to stick.

358
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,800
And there's golden rules.
What I find is that they tend to

359
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,080
become an area of silence in
their organization rather than

360
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,880
what they hoped to be.
And so I've seen these

361
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,160
repurposed a couple different
ways with organizations that

362
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,640
weren't quite quite ready or
just didn't want to get rid of

363
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,600
them, which is fine.
They turned those around.

364
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,840
They removed that big heavy
disciplinary action thing around

365
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,840
that first thing.
Guess what happened?

366
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,960
Not chaos, because that's the
concern.

367
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,680
If we remove the stick, our
world will devolve into chaos.

368
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:20,400
Didn't happen, believe it or
not.

369
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,800
Crazy, huh?
People still do good work and do

370
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,720
it for the right reasons, even
without the rules.

371
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,160
Can you believe that people are
generally good?

372
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,120
People, they want to come to do
good things to their family.

373
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,040
Yeah, could you imagine?
People don't just come to work

374
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,000
to just kill people and cut off
fingers.

375
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,160
Yeah, it's yeah, that's not a
thing.

376
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,560
That's that's not a thing.
And they repurpose them into the

377
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,840
12 areas that we need to know
the most about.

378
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,040
That's good.
That's a good they.

379
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,600
Repurpose them into 12, learn
continual learning opportunities

380
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,120
for their organization.
The last thing I want to say

381
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:54,400
about this, I know, I know I'm
going a little bit deep on this

382
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,280
with Sean, but I think it's
important to say this last

383
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,640
thing.
It's it's a general rule that I

384
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,160
want people to think about with
stuff in their organizations.

385
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,360
And if they hear nothing but
rambling mess for me throughout

386
00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:06,560
the rest of this podcast, if
there's one thing that they take

387
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,000
away from me with this, I want,
I want them to hear this.

388
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,360
And it's that anything that
creates silence in our

389
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:15,800
organizations, and I do mean
absolutely anything, if it's

390
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,880
gold rules, if it's chasing 0,
if it's an observation card,

391
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:23,760
insert anything here, anything
that creates silence for us,

392
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,720
it's bad for us.
It's bad for us as leaders.

393
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,560
It's definitely bad for the
people working on the sharp end,

394
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,040
and ultimately, it's bad for our
businesses.

395
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,440
I mean, the stories are endless.
The stories are absolutely

396
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,360
endless of bankruptcies and
tragedies and horrific things

397
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,400
happening, You know, whether
that's harming or killing an

398
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,920
employee or, oh, no, we did
something not so great and that

399
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,600
river doesn't exist anymore.
Or I spent a lot of time in the

400
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,520
commercial nuclear world.
Oh no, the next 200 miles around

401
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,680
us that are uninhabitable for
the next forever and those kind

402
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,480
of things.
All of those things.

403
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:08,200
Almost always, every one of
those examples has a lead up of

404
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,920
silence where we think we know
what's going on, we think we're

405
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,880
hearing stuff, but people really
can't tell us what they need to

406
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,120
tell us.
Silence is bad for us always.

407
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:20,360
And anything that creates
silence in their organizations,

408
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,760
it's bad for us.
That's good.

409
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,400
That's pretty powerful.
That's good, Sam.

410
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,400
I mean, you know, there's a lot
of companies that are trying to

411
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,560
figure out how do I apply these
types of solutions in the field.

412
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,520
And so if we talk about it, you
know, application in the field

413
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,160
scenarios here, you know, can
you give an example of a

414
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,080
situation where maybe applying
hot principles lead to

415
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,200
measurable safety improvement?
Yeah, I mean for sure.

416
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,800
So First off, I think this is
this is the most interesting

417
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,920
thing that I've seen with a lot
of companies that start down

418
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,080
this path.
And I only highlight this

419
00:22:53,080 --> 00:23:00,720
because our organizations are
extremely focused on output.

420
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,720
And I think so much so that we
have become obsessed with

421
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,960
measure and number and not as
obsessed with input as as we

422
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,200
should be, right?
It's it's that old adage.

423
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,840
If you don't change the output
by yelling about the output, you

424
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,040
go upstream and fix the input
side of things if you want to

425
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,560
want to focus on the output,
right?

426
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,560
It just feels weird for us as
people, we think we go right

427
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,760
there, we hammer on that output
side of things, it'll get

428
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:24,920
better.
Never does, right?

429
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,440
Never does.
I highlight this because just

430
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,000
about every organization I've
ever seen that starts in a bit

431
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,640
of a more traditional side of
this that then grows towards

432
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,520
hop.
One of the first positive

433
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,560
indicators, and this is going to
sound weird, but one of the

434
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,120
first positive indicators is
that our injury numbers go up.

435
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,480
And what I mean by that is that
we're starting to hear about a

436
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,120
lot of things that we would have
never heard about in the past.

437
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,840
They're covering it up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

438
00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:01,200
If I say I hurt my finger, Sean,
and what you do is meet me back

439
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,800
in the office, say hey, good job
hurting your finger, I'm going

440
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,080
to hurt you more by making you
unemployable.

441
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,560
Now, I'm not telling you when I
when I hurt my finger.

442
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,040
I'm just not.
I, I know this from lived

443
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,040
experience as a safety pro and
having focused most of my career

444
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,120
on growing relationships with
people nearest to the front

445
00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:20,920
lawn, that when you start to
hear the whispers of, hey,

446
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,440
something happened and then you
find that person, right?

447
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,800
And they've got a bandaged up
hand and a whole bunch of

448
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,680
sutures and they say didn't
happen here.

449
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,680
Are you sure there's blood on
the, on the lathe?

450
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,960
There's blood on that lathe.
Didn't happen.

451
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,000
Didn't happen here.
When we're forcing our folks,

452
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,000
you know, to go out and seek
medical care on their own

453
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,560
because we are not mature enough
as an organization to hear the

454
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,520
bad news, that is a sad, sad
thing.

455
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:49,640
It's a sad, sad thing because we
owe it at a minimum to those

456
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,920
employees to take better care of
them than that.

457
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,200
Yeah, we owe it.
Yeah.

458
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,000
I mean, that kind of leads to,
you know, some of the experience

459
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,080
I've seen in the industry where,
you know, a lot of companies are

460
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:09,120
managing triaging, you know,
safety incidents, whether you

461
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:12,040
know, for first aid versus a
recordable, right?

462
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,200
And they really try to get in
there and and kind of, you know,

463
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,520
minimize the reporting aspects
of, you know, basically a

464
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,960
recordable.
And is that the best approach it

465
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,680
or is it an effective approach?
Is it, is it proper?

466
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,120
What's, what's your thoughts on
that?

467
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:32,160
Because no.
And I'm curious, No, let let me

468
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,120
unpack that one because it's
something that's very I'm very

469
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:36,520
passionate about and you'll
understand why in just a second.

470
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,240
But I want to tell you, hold my
feet to the fire in the last

471
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,440
question you asked me because
I'll forget and I want to come

472
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,360
back to, but that's, that's,
that's a great question.

473
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,760
I spent most of my life as a
safety leader in some capacity

474
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,080
or another, from the sharp end
of that structure of of safety

475
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,280
in an organization to the blunt
end of that structure, safety

476
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,840
organization being as close to
the work as you can get with us

477
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,960
as a safety pro to being
farthest away from the work.

478
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,760
So field safety practitioner,
corporate safety somebody, those

479
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,720
two are wildly different roles,
right?

480
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,560
And everything in in between.
I say that to tell you that we

481
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,240
focused a lot on things like
recordability.

482
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,680
Yeah.
In fact, we would incentivize

483
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,720
having low numbers of recordable
events, right, right.

484
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,960
With big paychecks that came
along with having low recordable

485
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,320
events.
Now what's interesting is we

486
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,840
found ways to meet those
incentivized metrics.

487
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,480
And if you look at them on
paper, you would say, my God,

488
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,280
they've.
Got the safest company ever?

489
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,640
They they went from put this in
perspective, the company that

490
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,800
I'm thinking about in this
particular instance was about

491
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,480
65107 thousand employees.
They had 30 recordables last

492
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,040
year.
That's not big for 7500 people,

493
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,240
by the way.
And now this year they had four.

494
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,880
My God, these people have
stumbled onto some magic, right.

495
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:03,080
Well, you're looking at me,
you're looking at magic, because

496
00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:08,800
magic manipulation exactly the
the go do that we received does

497
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,560
make this lower, right?
Well, any safety pro out there

498
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,720
listening is going to understand
exactly what I'm going to say

499
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,480
next, you know, because I want a
trophy for this, Sean.

500
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,440
I want a trophy.
I've got it somewhere out in my

501
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:20,640
garage.
I've got to dig it out of one of

502
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,000
the boxes and it says something
like presented to Sam Goodman

503
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,520
for dramatically lowering
incident rates through creative

504
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:34,440
case management creative.
So what we almost always see is

505
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,440
that the recordables aren't
really going away.

506
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,200
Maybe even back some of our
earlier conversation about how

507
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,840
those numbers go up.
It's that we just get better at

508
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,080
managing those cases.
You know, I'm going to go to the

509
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,160
doctor's office once a week and
bring T-shirts from the company,

510
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,800
Donuts, and I'm going to say,
hey, you don't forget about me.

511
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,080
Remember this face when I come
in here randomly, you know, and

512
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,400
I've got an employer Remember
Me.

513
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,560
I'm going to lay the groundwork
of that relationship.

514
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,360
I'm going to get to know that
doctor.

515
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:03,760
I'm going to have their personal
cell phone number in in my

516
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,640
pocket.
When that employee gets a Boo

517
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,720
Boo that needs a few stitches,
I'm going to walk in there and

518
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,920
try to convince them not to
stitch it, to do anything other

519
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,720
than that right?
Anything that's going to fall

520
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,960
onto the first aid list.
Instead of pushing us over into

521
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,000
that territory of recordability,
I'm going to say things that

522
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,720
sound like you sure, you sure
you've got to put that rigid

523
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,520
brace on there.
You sure we can't just do that

524
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,480
with some rest and ice?
And don't worry, I've got a job

525
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,880
for them when we get back.
Just just don't, don't write

526
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,160
them off days.
I've got it, I've got it.

527
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,440
And the wacky thing about that,
Sean and I shared the story a

528
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,440
while back, a very vivid,
burned, ingrained memory in my

529
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,120
head, is that we did this one
time, right?

530
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,280
We had an employee that was
walking through a parking lot,

531
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,360
tripped over thin air, sprained
their ankle type of deal.

532
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,840
Yeah.
What I would put into the not

533
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,280
preventable bucket or in the
good old days, as we would call

534
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,720
act of God, right?
Something like that.

535
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,440
You trip over thin air.
I don't know if I've got an

536
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,080
action for that one other just.
Happened.

537
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,320
Yeah, yeah.
And so we go in there, we have

538
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,160
what one of our safety pros does
the normal song and dance.

539
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,680
Just get them back to sight.
Get them back to sight.

540
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,480
Guess what?
Sweeping their shop is part of

541
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,920
their normal everyday duties.
So they're going to be the shop

542
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,200
cleaner for the next week.
You know, doctor agrees to it,

543
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,360
sends them in there and some
type of soft, soft brace split

544
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,400
something thing, you know,
support walking into the site

545
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,600
the next day.
Guess what happens?

546
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,280
They trip over something like an
actual something and they fall

547
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:33,680
and they break their other
ankle.

548
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,400
So at the very least it should
be shock and horror to anyone

549
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,080
out there, this image of an
employee that hurt themselves

550
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,800
doing work for us.
And now not only are they hurt

551
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,000
and they should be at home
chilling out, getting better,

552
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,320
but we've got them limping
around, sight in a boot,

553
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,520
sweeping shops like.
And then they broke their other

554
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,120
ankle.
On the worst day, they broke

555
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,280
their other ankle.
But even on a good day, let that

556
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,520
image sink into your head for a
second, like is, is that who we

557
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,280
are?
Is that really who we are?

558
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,920
Right.
So no, I think that's it.

559
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,320
There's, there's some great
research out there from a guy by

560
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,560
the name of Doctor Matt
Hallowell.

561
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,240
I would encourage folks to read
around total recordable

562
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,640
incident, right?
I won't dive too deep into it,

563
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,760
but to put it very simply, I
think our obsession around TRIR,

564
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,720
in particular recordables is
that we've operated under this

565
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,000
flawed idea that if we get
enough little things, eventually

566
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,440
we're going to have gigantic
things, right?

567
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,120
And there is some truth, I
personally, I think around the

568
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,480
idea of shots on goal, right?
This idea that, you know, if if

569
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,680
you're nearly killing somebody
every other day, you're probably

570
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,600
going to kill some people,
that's bad, right?

571
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,560
That's probably a great place to
go spend some time.

572
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,400
But that's usually not what we
see on a recordable list.

573
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,080
It sounds like Sam picked up the
trash bag and threw out his

574
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,520
back.
It sounds like there was a bee

575
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,880
sting and the person got some
medication that they probably

576
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,800
really needed.
And now it's a bad day because

577
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,880
they got the medication that
they needed.

578
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,480
That feels not right.
It sounds more like things like

579
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,360
that.
So this idea of time together,

580
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,160
37 recordables, most of which
are basic sprain, strain,

581
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,040
scrapes, stings, now all of a
sudden is somehow going to

582
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,080
manifest itself as an
occupational fatality is just

583
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,000
wild, right?
That's a, that's a, that's a

584
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,960
wild thread to think would
connect, but the research shows

585
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,320
that.
So I would encourage folks to go

586
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,680
take a look at that around the
fact that TRR almost always

587
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,240
manifests as just random
variability.

588
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,560
It's just noise.
And that almost always if we're

589
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:42,480
looking at TRIR as a predictor
of larger, more catastrophic

590
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,360
events, as it's been put by many
others in the past, it's

591
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,320
flipping a coin.
And if you were to compare coin

592
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,360
flips to the tracking and
trending of that TRIR as an

593
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,280
indicator of that big nasty
thing going to happen, the coin

594
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,360
flips.
Flips are actually more accurate

595
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,560
if they're a more accurate
predictor.

596
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,280
Than Tri well, OK, OK, all right
I got you I mean and this is

597
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,880
good I like the I like where
you're going with this so.

598
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,240
Let's sorry, Sean, I'm I go down
the rabbit hole, man.

599
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,960
I turn down that one.
Man, so so here we here we go.

600
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,080
So all right, so a company's
been really overdoing the the

601
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,120
management, the case management
of safety incidences.

602
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,600
They're really focused on this
TRRR process.

603
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:33,200
You know, how does Hop transform
that mindset of a company into

604
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,140
something?
The more you know, I guess user

605
00:32:36,140 --> 00:32:40,680
friendly, adoptable, you know, I
guess more caring for the

606
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,120
frontline individual.
Can you explain that?

607
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,720
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that first of all, I, I,

608
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,240
I want to insert here that I'm
not like the anti TRR guy.

609
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,200
So I don't, I don't want to come
across as that.

610
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,120
It's something that we do and I
think it it is something that we

611
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,760
probably should be looking at.
Right.

612
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,440
It is a metric that we need to
kind of observe and manage a bit

613
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:00,720
of the performance of business
we've.

614
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,120
Got to do and trust me, I know,
I understand when we get into

615
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,440
medical stuff, it gets weird,
things get expensive.

616
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,920
I know I, I get all that I, I
understand all that stuff.

617
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,880
But I think where my mind goes
is to that more safety

618
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,920
differently definition of what
safety even is.

619
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,680
If we're operating under this
idea that our goal is to make

620
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,920
sure that nothing bad ever
happens, like ever.

621
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,280
Because if anything bad ever
happens, even if it's a bee, bee

622
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,880
sting, we suck at safety.
I don't think that's true.

623
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,520
I I just can't see how that's
true.

624
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,600
Because if you put that in the
context of real life and work

625
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,160
fits in the bucket of real life,
as much as we like to pretend

626
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,960
that work is not real life, it's
still the world.

627
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,240
We're just living in the world.
Bad things happen.

628
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,520
That's the world.
That's just a fact of life.

629
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,160
Bad things happen when we think
about safety as not being the

630
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,840
absence of negatives, but more
about the presence of positives,

631
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:00,760
right.
When I'm thinking that it's not

632
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,040
so much about just preventing
every single little bump or

633
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,920
scrape or those things, yeah,
I'm going to prevent as many of

634
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,199
those things as I can.
Duh.

635
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,880
I of course, like if there's
something out there tripping

636
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,840
employees, guess what I'm going
to be doing the next day?

637
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,960
I'm going to have somebody out
there with one of those really,

638
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,040
really, really sweet little
sidewalk grinder things.

639
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,199
You probably know what I'm
talking about.

640
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:25,960
You put it on the front of like
a bobcat or something and they

641
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,080
are going to grind that thing
down smooth.

642
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,920
Heck, we might even still put a
little bit of orange paint on it

643
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,080
so people see that we ground it
down.

644
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,920
We might even score it because
it might be too smooth.

645
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,040
So now people won't slip on it.
If it rains, we'll take care of

646
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,320
it.
Of course we're going to do

647
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,880
those things, but understanding
that the nature of most of our

648
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,159
work is there's going to be a
bump here and there's going to

649
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:48,560
be a scrape there.
There's going to be a trip over

650
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,679
thin air there.
If we spend all of our time, all

651
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,400
of our time focused on just
trying to drive that overall

652
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,040
number down, I don't think we're
putting enough focus where it

653
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,880
needs to go, which is on serious
injuries and fatalities within

654
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,800
our organizations.
If we spent just half of the

655
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:13,280
time that we put on driving down
TRIR on, on things that sound

656
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,600
like safeguards, life saving
controls.

657
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:22,240
If we put just as much time onto
these situations where it's

658
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:26,240
really easy for people to get
stuff wrong, like air inviting

659
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:29,760
situations, air likely
situation, situations where you

660
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,880
depend on me to get that 100%
right 100% of the time or things

661
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,240
go 100% wrong.
Those kind of situations.

662
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:42,760
If I spent my time focused on
actually fixing or at very least

663
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,840
improving the system in which
people work instead of maybe

664
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,600
chasing my tail with how do I
make sure bees never sting

665
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,560
people again?
I think that's probably where

666
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,760
we're going to get the most bang
for a buck because to me that's

667
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,160
the most tragic part about where
we're at is that we have done a

668
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,560
great job at lowering those
overall very minor, high

669
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,360
frequency, minor injuries within
our organizations.

670
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,840
But basically overall, we kill
in Maine people at the same rate

671
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,400
as we always have.
We've not really put much of a

672
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,120
chunk in that.
So I think with this question of

673
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,320
how does human and organization
performance really impact that,

674
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,400
it starts to go back to the very
beginning of our conversation.

675
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,520
There's a couple other things I
peppered in there that are super

676
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,160
important to of note.
Fixing systems instead of

677
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,040
people.
If you're trying to fix people,

678
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,880
good luck.
That's that's going to, you're

679
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,880
going to have a real bad time.
Fix the system in which people

680
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,960
work instead of the people that
work in the system.

681
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,240
Fix the system.
Focus on life saving controls

682
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:48,080
and safeguards.
Controls save.

683
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,120
Lives.
Engineering controls.

684
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:50,880
Absolutely.
Controls save lives.

685
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,200
Robust, air tolerant controls,
controls that actually plan for

686
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,120
me to get it wrong because they
know I'm a person and I'm going

687
00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:59,760
to do stupid things because I
do.

688
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,520
I'm graded on stupid things.
It's still going to save my

689
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,840
life.
I didn't say no bump, no scrape.

690
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,600
That control might reduce
something from dead to broke

691
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,000
arm.
But I don't know about you man.

692
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,800
If I have the choice, you can
break both of them.

693
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,040
I'll take. 2 broke arms over
dead any day of the week.

694
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,240
That's the real conversation we
have to have in our

695
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:21,040
organizations.
It helps us do those things.

696
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,600
But most important of all, the
point that I'm driving towards

697
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,640
is that human and organizational
performance creates that

698
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,240
environment in which we can
learn from those that truly

699
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:34,080
understand the people that are
on the front lines, the sharp

700
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,200
end of our organizations.
We use some different tools,

701
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,120
right?
Tools that most people probably

702
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,000
heard of, things that sound like
learning teams.

703
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,160
And if you haven't heard of
learning teams, if you're

704
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,600
familiar with any rapid
improvement strategy, things

705
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:51,000
like quality circles or, or
things like that, you're going

706
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,520
to kind of get the gist of it
right.

707
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,440
You're going to get this idea
down pretty pat, pretty quick.

708
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,440
And I so I won't, I won't dive
into what a learning team is all

709
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,240
that, all that deeply other than
to say it's learning from the

710
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:04,120
folks nearest to the work,
improving with the folks nearest

711
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,680
to the work.
So the people that that do the

712
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,680
things on the sharp end of our
organizations, they tend to know

713
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,760
where our on or under controlled
critical risks are at.

714
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,680
They tend to know where our
operational struggles are at.

715
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,400
They know the pain points, they
know the problems.

716
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,240
The best way I found to describe
this is that they know where

717
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:32,480
things haven't gone all the way
wrong yet, but they are

718
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,120
currently going wrong.
Where things haven't failed but

719
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,280
they are nearing failure.
Stuff that hasn't happened, but

720
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,920
it's happening.
If we spent time with those

721
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,760
folks, if we create that
environment which they can

722
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,200
really tell us the hard truth,
sometimes the conversations that

723
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,600
sound like Bob, all the most
died over there last week, those

724
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,200
kind of conversations.
Right.

725
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,320
Yeah.
And then when then we work with

726
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,800
them to Co create what better
looks like there we come up with

727
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,800
some amazing stuff, absolutely
amazing stuff.

728
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,480
Well, so you're really talking a
lot about, you know, getting the

729
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,560
feedback directly from, you
know, the front line.

730
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,800
First hand information.
Yeah, absolutely.

731
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,800
And they're not being, they're
not afraid to do that, right?

732
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,400
They're, they're being well,
almost incentivized because they

733
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,480
appreciate the fact that someone
cares right then.

734
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,680
And that's, that's going to help
them be safe, right.

735
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,360
So, and I, I really like the
engagement.

736
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,920
I love that, that aspect of of,
you know, a safety culture.

737
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,040
But let's, let's pivot a bit
and, you know, let's talk about,

738
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,520
well, what role does leadership
play in creating a hop culture,

739
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,120
a strong hop culture?
Talk about that.

740
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:49,600
Yeah, So I, I think the thing
that I see more often than not

741
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:55,120
when folks think about doing
hop, I'm just going to say doing

742
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,320
hop within their organization.
And there's so many different

743
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,760
ways to say this because we're
so cautious around making sure

744
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,520
folks understand this isn't a
program that you roll out.

745
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,800
This isn't just a check sheet
you can put in your

746
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,520
organization.
Doesn't it doesn't work like

747
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,320
that.
We're talking about underlying

748
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,320
beliefs, assumptions, collective
underlying beliefs and

749
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,360
assumptions.
We're getting into exactly what

750
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:15,920
you mentioned.
We're getting into culture.

751
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:18,760
That's not something you can
just go say, hey, go do this.

752
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,720
That doesn't work like that.
But the first kind of fatal flaw

753
00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:26,560
I see people encounter with this
is they think that human and

754
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,760
organizational performance is
something that we do down to our

755
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,280
employees.
It's something that I'm going to

756
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,480
go out and do to my folks.
I'm going to go out to them and

757
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,520
teach them about hop.
I'm going to tell them about how

758
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,240
they need to do hop stuff,
right.

759
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,160
From experience, I can tell you
if you get in a room with a

760
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,040
bunch of sharp end people and
you tell them that, hey, you

761
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,120
know what air is normal people
show up to work to do a good

762
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,280
job.
People on the sharp end of the

763
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,120
organization, they know the most
about whatever it is that they

764
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:55,920
do for a living.
They are the subject matter

765
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,800
expert of that piece of
equipment that they operate.

766
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,200
No one knows it better than they
do.

767
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,480
They even know that you got to
hit it twice on a Thursday with

768
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,000
a hammer to get it to start.
They, they know, they know this

769
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,160
stuff.
And you tell that to them and

770
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,520
they go, well, duh, why are you
telling me this?

771
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,360
You need to go tell them up
there.

772
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,080
You need to go tell them that
stuff and they're right.

773
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,440
So human organizational
performance to your question is

774
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,480
a leadership thing.
It is an operating philosophy

775
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,160
kind of thing.
It doesn't go down to our

776
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,320
employees.
It actually goes the other way.

777
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:31,480
This is for our leaders in our
organizations, right?

778
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,560
I've heard it framed up this way
from a guy by the name of Todd

779
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:39,640
Conklin that said that for every
hour that you spend talking to

780
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,880
your frontline folks about HOP,
you should probably spend about

781
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,520
6 talking to your leaders.
And that's not a rule or

782
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,200
anything.
It's just highlighting a point

783
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:52,480
that this is for them.
So when I think about how that

784
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,280
works for a leader, right, I'm
going to highlight the, the last

785
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,960
principle on the list of, of, of
the five hot principles.

786
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,000
And that's this idea that how
you respond matters.

787
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,520
So just a really a really good,
a really good example of this is

788
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,720
that how that impacts my
leadership and my ability to

789
00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:15,960
create, create that environment
in which we have high amounts of

790
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:17,520
information in our
organizations.

791
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,920
If you bring me the hey, I
messed this thing up, this thing

792
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,320
broke the the line is down for
some reason over here, I got the

793
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:32,320
cut on my finger and I react
rather than respond.

794
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,240
So I react.
And when I react, that means I'm

795
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:39,640
coming from a place of emotion
and distrust.

796
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,000
I freak out, I meltdown, I
panic, I ask who it was, What

797
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,520
are they deserve?
I freak out on you.

798
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,640
That's such a critical
intersection in our

799
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,400
organizations because our
employees are taking the risk of

800
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,080
bringing us this information and
make no bones about it, it, it

801
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,120
is a risk to bring bad
information up through an

802
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,680
organization.
I've taken on the risk of

803
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,520
saying, hey, things didn't quite
work out how we planned.

804
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:12,120
And you meet me in that moment,
my courageous act of telling you

805
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,120
the truth with I'm going to fire
you, I'm going to blame you, I'm

806
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,200
going to freak out on you, I'm
going to retrain you.

807
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:22,000
How likely is it that I'm ever
going to bring you more of that

808
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,280
type of information unless I
absolutely have to?

809
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,360
The answer is I'm not.
People only tell us as leaders

810
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,200
what we allow them to tell us.
Even if we have a big rule that

811
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,600
says they got to tell us stuff,
I still only tell us, well,

812
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:38,360
what?
What we allow them to tell us.

813
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,120
So, So what?
Yeah, yeah.

814
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:41,760
OK.
But let me, let me double click

815
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,280
on that little thought there.
So really from a manager's

816
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,160
leadership perspective, the
answer is I need more

817
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:48,800
information.
Tell me more of the the

818
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,680
incidents that are happening so
I understand what I can do to

819
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,440
help make an impact, to fix
things.

820
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,200
Tell me more.
Tell me you know what's

821
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,920
happening or you tell me the bad
news and that brave, you know,

822
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:04,480
act that you just did.
It's more like, are you OK?

823
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,480
What can we do to help you?
You're nailing it.

824
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:07,480
Yeah, right.
Yeah.

825
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,080
Not just, you know, hey, that
wasn't very good that way, you

826
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,480
know, Why didn't he know he was,
you know, you know, doing

827
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:16,800
something wrong, right.
Or you know.

828
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,360
The, the, the thing, the thing
that you see because you, you

829
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:20,560
nailed it.
You absolutely nailed it.

830
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,480
We go down, we go towards
response.

831
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,840
So that response is more focused
on restoration rather than it is

832
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,560
blame.
So, OK, who's hurt?

833
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:35,840
Is somebody hurt?
What do they need?

834
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,280
Who's responsible for getting
them?

835
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,120
What they need are our
operations, is our site, is it

836
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,440
safe, stable and secure?
If not, how do we make it safe,

837
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,160
stable and secure?
We have to answer those

838
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,160
questions anyways.
That's the right place to start.

839
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,280
And then we ask a question that
sounds something like, OK, how

840
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,480
do we, how do we best learn from
this?

841
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,480
What's the path forward?
What's the tool that we use?

842
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,680
Is this a, you know, a learning
team thing?

843
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,440
Is this a root cause thing?
Do we need to like debrief and

844
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,760
just get people in a room and
figure this thing out together?

845
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,960
But most important of all,
answering that question, how do

846
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,880
we learn?
What's, what's the learning

847
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,080
here?
So really what we're driving

848
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,320
towards with a leader leading
with these principles, because

849
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,440
they're finding exactly what you
said, they're discovering more

850
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,040
information.
The key idea here for leaders is

851
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,240
this is that damn good leaders
need damn good information.

852
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,520
I don't know how other people
feel, but I can tell you my time

853
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,320
spent as a leader, there wasn't
a lot that I needed.

854
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,840
Meaning that if you gave me a
bucket to set on in a coffee

855
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,600
pot, I was pretty OK.
I'm good.

856
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,320
I don't even need a computer.
By God, take it away.

857
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,280
I don't want it.
But the one thing that I can't

858
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:48,440
live without is information
because I need information to

859
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:53,640
make good decisions as a leader.
I need raw, real, UN massaged,

860
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,120
UN manipulated information,
unfiltered information to know

861
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,480
how to task and resource and
support.

862
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,760
I need that information I
absolutely required.

863
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,280
I would go as far as to say that
type of information, information

864
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,720
that I would describe as
operational reality, is mission

865
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:14,360
critical to my role.
I have to have it because if I

866
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,320
don't have access to that
information for any of those

867
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,760
reasons that we've discussed, if
I'm that person that freaks out,

868
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,920
if I'm that person that thinks
human error is just something

869
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,360
people do and if they tried
harder they wouldn't have errors

870
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:29,320
or anything in between on this
list that we can unpack.

871
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,480
If I don't have that
information, I find myself in a

872
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:40,320
position of while educated,
usually while well intended, and

873
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,000
while being my best.
They are just guesses.

874
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,040
They are best guesses based.
On you know the full picture.

875
00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:49,840
And my my vantage point in the
organization.

876
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:56,200
So The thing is, is that I don't
like guessing because I'm wrong

877
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,520
a lot.
And if I have that information,

878
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,920
because I've done the work as a
leader to create that

879
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,080
environment where people can
tell me the stuff I need, even

880
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:10,000
if that stuff is scary, even if
that stuff leads to maybe even a

881
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,840
not great day for me as a
leader, I'm frustrated.

882
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,440
But I keep that stuff in check
because I understand that that

883
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,760
information is the most vital
part of my role.

884
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,560
I find that leaders almost
always go, man, this stuff.

885
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,720
A good buddy of mine, the quote
that I always shares from a good

886
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:29,360
buddy of mine, that's a plant
director.

887
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,400
He works in in the energy field.
And he's one of those guys that

888
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,680
when you see him from afar,
you'd go, that guy looks scary.

889
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,520
He's one of those guys not who
would you you would think to be?

890
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,520
And I mean this in the most
positive way, a big softy,

891
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:46,880
right?
You, you just what you just

892
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,760
wouldn't imagine it.
But he was a bit, you know, a

893
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,440
little resistant to trying to
change some of the ways that we

894
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:54,960
approach these things
originally.

895
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,280
And as he started to grow into
this and see the effectiveness

896
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,560
of these ideas and start to see
that in practice in his

897
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,880
organization, he stopped me one
day and he said, listen, I got

898
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,440
to tell you, I love this stuff.
He's got this big grub voice

899
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:08,560
that sounds kind of like that.
Yeah.

900
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,320
But I love this stuff.
I love this because it lets me

901
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,560
hear the raw and the reel.
It lets me get that information

902
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,280
that I need.
And that's what I need as a

903
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,320
leader.
I'm discovering stuff that I

904
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,480
never knew was a problem before.
The story he shared with him is

905
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,640
he discovered his guys couldn't
get respirators and they were

906
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,240
going to Home Depot in the
middle of the night to buy

907
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:32,560
respirators.
And for whatever reason, they,

908
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,200
in the past, you know, they
brought this up before and

909
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:36,720
someone told them just to try
harder.

910
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:39,960
He's like, I just learned about
this.

911
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:41,680
I just learned about it.
Can you believe that?

912
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:43,920
Right?
It it's it's a pretty powerful

913
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:45,400
thing for a leader to
experience.

914
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,640
Well, you know, and and that
information, you know within

915
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,760
that, you know the example of
this, the person you know, you

916
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,120
know it.
It seems like just based on your

917
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,360
description, he's a really
caring person.

918
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,360
Even the facade maybe not look
like it, but he is.

919
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,560
And now he gets the information
and he can actually use his

920
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,040
superpower, being a caring
individual, because he's got

921
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:06,720
better.
Data, absolutely.

922
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:08,200
It's and you, you nailed it
there.

923
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,680
It's, it's a, it's a data in
thing, right, right.

924
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,400
It's a data in thing.
And even to come back to the bit

925
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,800
of the measure conversation,
because that's a, that's a data

926
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,160
point for us in our
organizations.

927
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,960
Our observations can be a data
point for us in our

928
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,520
organizations.
But The thing is, is that

929
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,360
measures, metrics, all the stuff
we spend time out there with the

930
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,880
tape measure on in our
organizations without context,

931
00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:32,720
they can be a real problem to
us.

932
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,400
TRR is a great example with
without real context around TRR,

933
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:41,640
it's just a bunch of
gobbledygook on a page 4.

934
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,080
Is that good or bad?
I don't know.

935
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,800
It's, it's, it's, it's just,
it's meaningless dribble on a

936
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,560
page without context.
So to that data that you just

937
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:59,480
mentioned, I don't, I have at
least not experienced any other

938
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,720
data point in our organization
that is as useful to us as

939
00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:07,040
organizations.
Then the story of normal work,

940
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:13,040
the story of normal everyday,
usually successful work, the

941
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:17,360
story of lived experience,
people working on the sharp end

942
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,160
in our organizations.
This story that sounds like

943
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,720
things mostly go well and
occasionally go wrong.

944
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,840
Really.
This story that, if you wanted

945
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,560
to describe it as something real
quick, it's the story of how we

946
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,880
get things done around here.
And that story, I've never found

947
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,120
anything to be quite as useful
as that.

948
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,320
And The thing is, is it the only
person that really has that

949
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,800
story is the person that lives
it.

950
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,440
The person that walks in those
boots every day.

951
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,640
We can walk up behind them and
watch them do stuff.

952
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,120
We can fill that out on a card,
but it's not the real story.

953
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,200
I've got to go get that story
from them.

954
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:57,960
So really what we're talking
about is how do you get that

955
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,520
story from them?
Well, things that stand.

956
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,360
What are way of us getting that
story and outgrowing those

957
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,400
things?
What are some of the strategies

958
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,080
you would use to move away from
the blame game towards the

959
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,800
system improvements?
You know when something does go.

960
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,600
Wrong.
Yeah.

961
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,640
So I, I want to talk really
basic tactical things here for

962
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:20,520
leaders and I spend a lot of
time as leaders.

963
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,360
It's, it's most of my day job is
spending time with people that

964
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,200
lead people, right.
That's, that's kind of it.

965
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,280
And so the things that I
encourage them to do, especially

966
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,480
on, again, this is very
sharpened leadership tactic,

967
00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:35,080
right?
The first thing that I encourage

968
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,920
them to do when they hear the
bad news and they are the boss.

969
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:41,800
So they're going to hear the bad
news.

970
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,360
How much of it is the question,
right?

971
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,480
You want to hear at least as
much of it as you can.

972
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,800
But when you get that, and we
know this feeling, anyone that's

973
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,960
a leader out there, you know
this feeling, it's Friday,

974
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,040
you're ready to go home.
And then you get like the the

975
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:01,880
little like on the door, right?
And it's the something went

976
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,800
wrong, right?
What do you do now?

977
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,800
What's what's in that moment
tactic, right?

978
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,760
Stop.
The first thing that I encourage

979
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:14,520
folks to do is to literally stop
and breathe because some of us,

980
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,880
more so than others, just go
into that mode where we just

981
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,840
start running and gutting.
We're going to like RIP people's

982
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,200
heads off and start kicking
things Like it's going to be

983
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,040
wild, right?
Some of us, not so much, but we

984
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,520
do that in the sense of that
disappointed look on our face

985
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:35,320
and the my God, who, who's the
idiot of those kind of things?

986
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:37,600
Just saying thank you for the
information.

987
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,360
Give me 5 minutes and, and we'll
figure this out.

988
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,320
Shutting the door, screaming at
the heavens if you need to,

989
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:45,760
that's fine.
Banging your head against the

990
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,600
wall, cool.
But when you open that door and

991
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,160
come out, you're ready to get
curious.

992
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,520
And following that pause up that
stop and pause.

993
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,360
And most of the time for for
some of us, myself included,

994
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,880
stop, pause, breathe a couple
times, then open the open the

995
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:03,600
door, following it up with this
idea that our first words should

996
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,520
be curious words.
So again, this is sharp end

997
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:09,680
tactic.
But instead of saying something

998
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:14,280
like who failed, asking
something like what failed, it's

999
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,840
a far better question.
Who is the one that we want to

1000
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,240
go towards?
We want to go towards last

1001
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:23,280
person that touched it, who
touched it last.

1002
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:27,200
That's probably the problem.
But almost always that's a trap

1003
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,600
because who takes us towards
trying to fix who?

1004
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,960
What takes us trying to fix, act
towards actual things that we

1005
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:38,840
can truly put our hands on and
fix?

1006
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,200
I can put my hands on.
What if I put my hands on who?

1007
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,720
I'm going to get another HR
violation to frame on my wall

1008
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,560
because the only thing that I
can do with my hands on who is

1009
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,640
put my hands around their neck.
And that doesn't work very well.

1010
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,400
Yeah, The Who is who is the
blame game?

1011
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:55,320
It's the.
Blame game.

1012
00:53:55,800 --> 00:54:00,880
So as a as a leader, if I right
out of the gate move towards

1013
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:05,320
what, what is taking me towards
system things, it's taking me

1014
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,280
toward what in the work
environment can I actually make

1015
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,600
better?
What is the thing that failed

1016
00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:14,520
these people and how can I make
sure that that thing fails them

1017
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:19,080
far less than it did today?
What takes me towards tangible

1018
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,320
things that I can actually
improve in our organization?

1019
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,200
If you think more broadly
speaking with this idea, you

1020
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,080
know, one of the things that I
tend to tee up post event things

1021
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,920
with, because I do spend a lot
of time with organizations after

1022
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:36,040
events trying to dive deeper
than maybe they traditionally do

1023
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:40,240
into events, especially more
unfortunately, but especially

1024
00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:43,520
more around more catastrophic
events and organizations, Places

1025
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:47,160
where we really got to learn
like we, we have to, right?

1026
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,160
Pretty much every every one of
these sessions or every one of

1027
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:53,000
these experiences that I'm
involved in, I open it up with

1028
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,000
this idea.
Everything made perfect and

1029
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,080
total sense to the person
involved until it suddenly

1030
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:00,760
doesn't didn't make sense
anymore.

1031
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:05,440
Our job in these sometimes
tragic post of it moments is to

1032
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,160
understand how things made
sense.

1033
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,240
Because if I can understand how
things made sense, I can

1034
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,160
actually do some pretty
meaningful improvement around

1035
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,360
how that stuff made sense
because it did.

1036
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,840
It's a fact of life.
Things made perfect and total

1037
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:25,480
sense until it suddenly didn't.
No one in our work world says, I

1038
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,840
definitely knew the next step
was cut off my arm and I just

1039
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:30,280
did it anyway.
Of course not.

1040
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,320
No one's doing that.
It made perfect and total sense

1041
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,840
until I went, Oh no, my arm.
I was as shocked as everybody

1042
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,880
else, right, Right.
So if I, if I can dive into that

1043
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:47,760
vein of how things made sense,
I'm in a pretty sweet spot of,

1044
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,520
of learning and improving
because there's this idea here

1045
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,160
that our people are just making
bad choices.

1046
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,760
But there's a big difference
between making bad choices and

1047
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,680
only having bad choices to
choose from.

1048
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,880
And almost always when we
discover host event and we

1049
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:09,080
really get down into that, down
into that, down into that

1050
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,280
figurative trench with them, we
discover that.

1051
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:16,280
Oh, my God, I can't believe this
didn't happen sooner.

1052
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,480
Yeah, my God, look at what they
were dealing with.

1053
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,520
But my God, this thing failed
them.

1054
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:29,240
My God, how I understand.
I can see exactly why they chose

1055
00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:32,720
that, because out of the 10
choices, that was all of them

1056
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:34,440
bad.
That was the least bad one.

1057
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,800
So how do we give them better
choices rather than telling them

1058
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,360
to just choose better?
Yeah, yeah, that's good, man.

1059
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,000
That's really good.
You know, for the listeners, as

1060
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,720
we've been, you know, diving
into hop initiatives and, and,

1061
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,120
and program principles and, and
tactics.

1062
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,160
And that last one about, you
know, for leaders the, you know,

1063
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:57,760
what failed versus who, that's a
key one.

1064
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,360
I really appreciate your, your,
you know, bringing that one up

1065
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,880
because I think that's probably
the one of the most easiest ones

1066
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,840
you can implement and most
impactful right now.

1067
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,280
When you think about right now.
Yeah, absolutely.

1068
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:12,320
You know, you know, Sam, for the
listeners, one of the the

1069
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,840
interesting things about you
that is really great is your

1070
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:22,400
take on all things safety
culture that you've lived over

1071
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:27,600
the past, you know, a few years
in your career and your videos

1072
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,600
for the listeners who haven't
seen you yet.

1073
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,200
Because I'm going to say that
preface it yet because after

1074
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,680
this podcast that they're going
to start following you and

1075
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:39,360
they're going to start listening
and watching your videos and

1076
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,760
just getting a huge chuckle out
of what you're doing.

1077
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:48,480
But also realizing there's some
like a thread of truth in these

1078
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,000
in these.
These little.

1079
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,200
Vignettes that you're putting
together that are absolutely

1080
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,640
spot on and and hilarious.
And so tell a little bit about

1081
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,880
how you've kind of in your your
business and your, your side

1082
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:02,680
hustle here with hot nerd that
you kind of put this together.

1083
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:05,400
And so listeners kind of get a
build, you know, feel for you.

1084
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,720
Yeah.
Well, I'd probably start with

1085
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:10,200
maybe some of the back story,
right.

1086
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:14,680
I mean, we, yeah, where we live
in this age where you're always

1087
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:16,960
constantly, especially if you
have a business, if you're in

1088
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,480
business, especially in business
for yourself, you're constantly

1089
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,640
sharing stuff on social media.
It's just a part of the modern,

1090
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,080
our modern world and especially
our modern business landscape.

1091
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,320
Right, Right.
And I decided early on that I

1092
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,000
didn't like making some of this
content stuff.

1093
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,880
And so I realized, though, that
I did like making stuff that was

1094
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,720
useful.
I did like making stuff that was

1095
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:39,600
funny things that made me
chuckle.

1096
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,520
And so I started making these
videos, right, and started

1097
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,400
making these videos and I make
them with this guy named Darryl,

1098
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:49,360
right?
And I keep getting accused that

1099
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:50,920
I am Darryl.
I am not Darryl.

1100
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,280
I'm not definitely not Darryl.
I keep hearing these things that

1101
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:57,240
sound like I've never seen you
and Darryl in the same room

1102
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,040
together.
I hear stuff like that.

1103
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:00,840
I hear this thing like, why are
you and Darryl wear the same

1104
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,440
watch?
I get, I get get a lot of this

1105
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,760
stuff, but the Darryl's just a
collaborator.

1106
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:10,200
But it's Darryl, the safety man.
And I had this kind of thought

1107
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,680
that I wanted to make these
videos that really highlighted

1108
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:18,600
the things that I found
frustrating maybe in the world

1109
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,600
of safety and health, things
that I would see play out

1110
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:27,640
working in organizations that
even me as the safety pro.

1111
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,960
And then maybe that person
across the room that's, you

1112
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,240
know, the pipe fitter, right?
My buddy that's across the room

1113
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:36,720
that we kind of look at each
other and we kind of do the

1114
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:40,320
silent thing of like, I know
this is stupid and you know,

1115
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:43,040
this is stupid, but we're not
stupid enough to say that it's

1116
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:47,280
stupid.
That kind of that kind of, you

1117
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,360
know, non verbal communication
that you develop with folks that

1118
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,080
that you work with, you know.
And so I wanted to start

1119
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,480
highlighting those things.
And I mean, there's, I don't

1120
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,920
know how many there are at this
point or how many we've got made

1121
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:01,680
all together, but I'm just going
to call it 100.

1122
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,640
There's probably 100.
Or so these things out there or

1123
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:08,560
coming out there soon, right
where it really highlights

1124
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:12,520
absurdity that plays out in our
work worlds.

1125
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:17,000
Now some of this stuff, my style
of comedy is to take something

1126
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:21,600
that's already kind of absurd
and run it to its push it to its

1127
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:27,360
most extreme form to highlight
just how hilarious it is, right?

1128
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,080
And we kind of go, my God, that
is what we do.

1129
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,920
Could you believe that that's
what we do?

1130
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,720
I'll give you a a good example
of folks can go watch it.

1131
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,960
It's out there, but it's getting
hot here in Phoenix.

1132
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,000
I'm sweating as we're speaking
because it's already in the

1133
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,280
triple digits outside and the
house has yet to cool down

1134
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,680
enough today because I need to
service my my HVAC.

1135
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:51,760
Probably it's that time of year,
right?

1136
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,320
But I'm like, man, OK, what what
happens?

1137
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:56,880
What happens when when things
start to get hot outside?

1138
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,640
Well, First off, our safety
folks start running around

1139
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:01,560
telling people, hey, I don't
think you know this because

1140
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:03,280
you're not a safety
professional, but it's warm

1141
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:07,120
outside.
That kind of old thing where

1142
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,240
corporate sends an e-mail from
the air conditioned office to

1143
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:12,400
tell everybody out there that
it's hot outside.

1144
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,640
It's just how insane that is
that we think that that's useful

1145
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,200
at all.
When, when, when we, when we run

1146
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:21,000
from the parking structure to
the building, you go, my God, I

1147
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:22,520
sweated so much in that 5
minutes.

1148
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,560
And we've got people out there
working 12 or 14 hours when it's

1149
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:28,800
107, but they need someone to
tell them that it's hot.

1150
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,920
OK, When you do that, those
people look at you and say, what

1151
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:34,560
are you going to tell me next?
The Sky's blue.

1152
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:36,920
I know this already.
I live out of here, right?

1153
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:39,440
And then I thought, well, what,
what would be next?

1154
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,480
Because usually we follow that
up with some form of hydration

1155
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:44,160
campaign.
Oh yeah, right.

1156
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,840
And again, I don't think any of
stuff stuff is necessarily bad

1157
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:49,960
or evil.
It's just hilarious sometimes

1158
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:53,600
the way that that we do this,
where we'll send out stuff or

1159
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,320
hang up posters that say drink
more water, right, We'll do,

1160
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,200
we'll do stuff like that.
But the one that I always found

1161
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,280
funny, useful, it is useful,
don't get me wrong, useful, but

1162
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,480
funny are the the the urine
color charts that when you go

1163
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:08,680
walk into any location, you're
going to see the urine color

1164
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,720
chart and you know, you're kind.
Of you're at the urinal and

1165
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:16,680
you're going, that's kind of
dark.

1166
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:22,600
Is this amber or is this so I, I
thought I, I thought the most

1167
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:26,480
extreme version of that would be
what we called AP card funny

1168
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:31,360
play on the word purchasing card
right where where Daryl Daryl

1169
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,600
used AP card observation where
he surprises someone in the

1170
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:36,160
restroom.
You can't see anything.

1171
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:37,840
So don't don't freak out.
Don't freak out.

1172
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,360
You can't see anything.
And he goes, hey, buddy, yo, you

1173
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,360
don't know this because you're
not a safety professional.

1174
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:46,080
I wouldn't expect you to have
this level of understanding, but

1175
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,120
it's hot outside and because
it's getting hot outside, you

1176
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:52,480
know, corporate has rolled out a
new P card observation program.

1177
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,600
So I am here to do an
observation on the color of your

1178
01:02:55,600 --> 01:03:02,080
stream and it's like, you know,
it's it's it's running it to its

1179
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:06,600
most extreme, but highlighting.
And the guys are going, hey, are

1180
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:08,600
you going to watch me do this or
what?

1181
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:11,120
And.
That's that's to set the scene a

1182
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:12,520
little bit.
You know, the guys out of

1183
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:14,040
urinal, you're just seeing
backs.

1184
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,960
That's all you're saying.
OK, got to keep it linked

1185
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:20,240
inappropriate, right?
I I don't, I don't want it

1186
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:24,480
X-rated safe safety failed.
Make sure he did drop his pants.

1187
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,000
Exactly, You know, but but Daryl
basically like leaps into the

1188
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,080
frame behind him, startles him
and it's like, I'm here to see

1189
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:32,480
what's going on down there.
What you got.

1190
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,560
And and that that's, yeah,
that's that was that's been the

1191
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:38,040
most favorite line that people
have shared with me from that

1192
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:41,680
clip was that Daryl's first
words are, hey, buddy, what you

1193
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:48,880
got going on down there, which
is which is safety speak for I'm

1194
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:54,800
here to observe you.
Oh, that's good.

1195
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,000
So, yeah.
So ET Nation, what I highly,

1196
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:02,400
highly recommend you do is
connect with the Sam Goodman

1197
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,560
here on the Hot Nerd and listen
to his podcast.

1198
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:09,440
You're getting a good taste of
some of his his insights today.

1199
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:13,360
You've got to watch these video
clips that he has that he, you

1200
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,920
know, are parodies on safety
culture and experiences or

1201
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:20,960
situational things that he's
exceeded.

1202
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,120
Basically, we've all been there,
you know, some form or fashion.

1203
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,000
So you're going to recognize
these things and they're,

1204
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:29,520
they're actually hilarious and
spot on.

1205
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:31,880
It makes you think like, OK,
there's got to be another better

1206
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,880
way.
And I, I think that these, this

1207
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,680
human organizational principles
of, you know, being more

1208
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:44,000
interested in the feedback
versus, you know, who caused the

1209
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:48,640
feedback, you know, the problem
that's I think the big paradigm

1210
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,200
shift and, and so many
organizations that they need to

1211
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:54,080
make.
And I really appreciate saying

1212
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:58,960
like all the, the great work
you're doing in this space to,

1213
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,320
you know, highlight that.
And I'm sure your, your business

1214
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:04,880
is going great.
And I'm really appreciative of

1215
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,840
you coming on the show and, and
talking more about this.

1216
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:11,520
I mean, I, I could probably go
on for another hour probably

1217
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:12,840
with you, Sam.
Well.

1218
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:15,400
Yeah.
We could do another episode too.

1219
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:17,000
Subjects, right?
Yeah, right.

1220
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:19,320
The problem with these subjects,
what I would encourage folks to

1221
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,960
do, you know, we, we took a, we
took a little bit of a loose

1222
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:24,160
journey through human and
organization performance and

1223
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,920
some of the basic stuff.
There's so much to unpack there,

1224
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:28,520
right.
There's someone think about

1225
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:31,080
there.
You'd shared my podcast a bit,

1226
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:35,200
but I would tell folks that over
on the podcast, we're currently

1227
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:38,720
right in the middle of working
through this What Now

1228
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:43,160
miniseries, which focuses on
each of the ideas very

1229
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,680
deliberately.
One idea, one principle per

1230
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,680
episode, talks briefly about
that idea, but then really

1231
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:53,160
unpacks some key actions that
you can think about.

1232
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:56,240
Not that you should just go do,
but some things that you could

1233
01:05:56,240 --> 01:06:00,320
think about doing within your
organization if those ideas

1234
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,320
sound like something you want to
pursue.

1235
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:05,200
Because I think that's always
the important question to

1236
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:07,400
answer, especially for leaders
and organizations.

1237
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:09,160
That's great and all, but tell
me what to do now.

1238
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:12,520
That stuff's over there for you.
And I will tell you that it's it

1239
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:16,040
is a blog cast.
So there are podcast episodes

1240
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:18,720
and you can follow up on the
website for a blog post for each

1241
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:21,560
one of those as well.
So tons of stuff over on the

1242
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:23,240
website.
If you don't mind, I will tell

1243
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:27,200
them to go to the hot nerd.com,
HOPVHOP, nerd.com.

1244
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:30,400
All the videos you see Shaw too.
I don't, I don't promote this

1245
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:32,720
enough for people just don't
hear it because I talk about it

1246
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:35,720
quite a bit, it feels like.
But all the videos I make, if

1247
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,400
you go to the resources page of
my website, you can download

1248
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,400
them.
So we're, we're just, we're just

1249
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:43,200
giving them.
We're just giving them away

1250
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,080
because I, I got asked this a
long time ago.

1251
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:48,760
People were saying like, hey,
can I have that video?

1252
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:51,120
I want to put in a presentation.
Yeah.

1253
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:55,320
So if you're looking for
something wacky like AP card to

1254
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:58,640
start, to start off your next
safety meeting or your next

1255
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:00,440
conversation around what are we
doing this summer?

1256
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,640
Because it's getting hot, you
can just download it and use it.

1257
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:05,480
The only rule is put it to good
use.

1258
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:07,640
That's it.
That's do good, do good.

1259
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:10,320
And that's, that's amazing.
Thanks for listening and

1260
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,640
watching the show.
If you enjoyed the show, then

1261
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,360
please share it with your
friends and coworkers on social

1262
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:17,480
media and tell somebody in
person.

1263
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:19,840
Thanks for being with us, ET
Nation.