Robert Bilott on PFAS, Dark Waters and Fighting Forever Chemicals

1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,400
Took several years digging
through documents to finally

2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,760
realize I was dealing with
something a lot bigger than

3
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,040
that, and it was something that
was impacting a lot of folks,

4
00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:12,120
not just the farmer and his
family, but this was a

5
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,920
contamination that was possibly
spreading across the whole

6
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,920
community, but not the whole
country and the whole world.

7
00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,320
Welcome to the Environmental
Transformation Podcast, where we

8
00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,680
bring you interviews with
industry leaders, climate

9
00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,080
champions, sustainability
practitioners, EHS and hazmat

10
00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,000
professionals making an impact
in their businesses today.

11
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,320
Each leader solving complex
challenges and delivering

12
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,320
solutions within their areas of
expertise.

13
00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,800
I'm your host, Sean Grady, and
thanks for joining us today.

14
00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,560
Before we jump in, make sure to
follow us on your devices and

15
00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:48,040
visit my website at
www.seangrady.com and sign up

16
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,480
for our newsletter and e-mail
announcements.

17
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,320
Now let's get started.
Welcome to the Environmental

18
00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,120
Transformation podcast.
I'm your host, Sean Grady and

19
00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,920
today's guest is the amazing
Robert Balat.

20
00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,800
Robert, thank you for joining
the podcast today.

21
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:08,160
We are here live at the AH and P
Hazmat Summit in Louisville, KY.

22
00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,520
And Robert just completed his
keynote speaker speaker spot for

23
00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,760
us here this morning.
And it was an amazing speech and

24
00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,720
the audience was just so happy
and and amazed by your your

25
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,080
talk.
So what was your take on the

26
00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,200
response for the the audience?
Oh, it was incredible.

27
00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:27,920
I was so pleased to be able to
be here.

28
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,240
I mean, this is really the folks
that hopefully will be helping

29
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,680
us figure out how to fix this
whole issue with P phos forever

30
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,680
chemicals.
Yeah, exactly.

31
00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,480
I mean, the, the, the storyline
that you gave about, you know,

32
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:47,400
from your the start and to where
we are today was a timeline that

33
00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,160
it's really hard to put
together, but you did it so

34
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:51,480
well.
You just explained it 'cause

35
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:52,800
you've been living it for so
long.

36
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,440
But I think the audience were
just amazed that, you know, it's

37
00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:01,440
been a 252426 year journey for
you to see where we are today.

38
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,640
Talk about what it was like to,
if you could for the audience to

39
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,039
hear, like, what was it like to
be in the trenches every day in

40
00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:14,480
the courtroom trying to convince
people that this is a real issue

41
00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,640
and you guys need to acknowledge
this and stop the, you know,

42
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,480
stop the cover up here.
Frustrating, very frustrating,

43
00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,800
you know, to be doing everything
you really could at the time.

44
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,760
And I was trying to do
everything I could as a lawyer

45
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,280
to, to raise awareness, you
know, filing briefs and arguing

46
00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,600
in court and trying to make
information public.

47
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,120
But it was incredibly difficult
to breakthrough and took a lot

48
00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,080
of additional steps.
You're reaching out to the media

49
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,240
and screenwriters and
storytellers to help get this

50
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,880
story to finally breakthrough.
Yeah, So for the listeners who

51
00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,640
don't know Robert, and there may
be a few of you, but he is the

52
00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:53,440
attorney behind the movie Dark
Waters.

53
00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,240
And so if you haven't seen that
movie, I highly recommend you

54
00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,680
take a, you know, an afternoon
off or evening and watch the

55
00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,240
movie Dark Waters.
It is.

56
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,920
It's the story of the
Parkersburg, WV community that's

57
00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:10,280
been affected by P Foss
contamination and your journey

58
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,040
of helping win lawsuits against
DuPont.

59
00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,960
Yeah, it's the movie actually
ends around the time of, gosh,

60
00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,720
20/15/2016.
And since then, unfortunately,

61
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,640
what we've seen happen is the
same story repeating itself all

62
00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:30,960
over the United States and now
all over the world.

63
00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,400
So hopefully more communities,
when they're finding out that

64
00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,520
these chemicals are in their
water and their oil, that they

65
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,280
can at least take take some
comfort in knowing that we've

66
00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,240
come a long way over the last 20
years and have a lot of

67
00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,920
information now that people can
use to help fix the problem.

68
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,080
I think the thing I recognize
was the challenge of getting the

69
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:57,440
EPA to actually formally
regulate this chemical and the

70
00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:02,280
evidence that you provided over
courses of years, that was plain

71
00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,640
as day in my mind that based on
the information and it took him

72
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,360
so long to get there.
And I I'm just scratching my

73
00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:11,800
heads.
Why did it take so long?

74
00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,240
Yeah, it's one of the reasons I
wrote the book Exposure was, you

75
00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,040
know, I hear that question a
lot.

76
00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,320
How is this, that this is still
an ongoing issue and that why is

77
00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,920
it that we're just now beginning
to regulate these chemicals

78
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,160
decades after the story came
out?

79
00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,120
And, you know, that's
unfortunate.

80
00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,280
Fortunately, it's the way our
regulatory system was set up

81
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,560
from the beginning in the 1970s
that just led to this incredibly

82
00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:42,920
difficult process with
unbelievable burdens that are

83
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,600
required to with different types
of proof and evidence and

84
00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,480
science that are needed to move
even the smallest steps forward.

85
00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:54,560
And even when we get there, you
know, we're finally at the point

86
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,600
where we're beginning to
regulate some of these chemicals

87
00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,720
in the US.
And we see even when we get

88
00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,280
there, that's challenged in
court, you know, when lawsuits

89
00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:08,240
are brought to try to stop it.
So it's an incredibly, it's an

90
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,560
incredibly complicated and
confused process that hasn't

91
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:13,680
worked very well.
Right.

92
00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:15,640
I think you know, is it like,
you know, I'm a former

93
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,920
regulator, I've been a
consulting for 23 years and I've

94
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,200
worked with Superfund, you know,
projects and remediation

95
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,040
cleanups and PRPS and and
companies just doing Retra.

96
00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,280
The interesting part about the
lack of disclosure of this

97
00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:37,000
chemical through the Tosca
process at the very beginning,

98
00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:41,320
they knew it was toxic and
failed to report it.

99
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,120
That was like the big what?
Are you kidding me?

100
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,320
They had an obligation as a
corporate company to do it.

101
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,440
They didn't.
And I think that was like the

102
00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,040
big miss from the beginning.
Yeah, absolutely.

103
00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:59,160
You know, a lot, a lot of this
global contamination might have

104
00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,280
been avoided, you know, if some
of this had started to be

105
00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:05,560
disclosed when it should have
back in the the mid 1970s, you

106
00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,160
know, when Tosca first came out
and these companies had an

107
00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,280
obligation to report substantial
risk information.

108
00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:16,960
And, you know, this is one of
those situations that what

109
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,320
happens when they don't.
You know, unfortunately, nobody

110
00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,720
knew that until we were able to
get in through litigation and

111
00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,360
see these internal documents and
show, well, wait a minute, they

112
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,560
did have information and didn't
disclose it.

113
00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,920
Well, by then, decades have gone
by and the contaminations

114
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,000
occurred.
And it's kind of difficult, if

115
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,480
not impossible at that point, to
put the genie back in.

116
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,840
The bottle toothpaste doesn't go
back in the bottle, right?

117
00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,240
That is just so mind boggling
that that occurred.

118
00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:48,480
And and I think just them
knowing all along that it it had

119
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,280
this level of toxicity and not
really bringing it and

120
00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:53,720
disclosing it.
It's just man's shame on those

121
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,560
industries.
You know, that did that in the

122
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,920
in the movie, you were really
brought into this whole

123
00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,000
situation that you weren't
really aware of your yourself at

124
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,520
the time, but by a family
friend.

125
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,320
Talk a little bit about the for
the listeners, what that was

126
00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,120
like when you realized I can't
ignore this.

127
00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,880
I have to do something.
Yeah.

128
00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,880
You know, I first first sort of
started this whole process back

129
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,000
in 1998 and at the time really
had no idea this was going to

130
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,880
turn into a process that dragged
on the next 26 years.

131
00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,360
It was, you know, a friend of my
grandmother's had referred a

132
00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,920
farmer in West Virginia to me,
Mr. Tennant, who was having

133
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,400
trouble with his cows.
And at the time, I thought it

134
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,720
was a pretty simple, see a
straightforward issue with some,

135
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,480
some, some chemicals probably
coming out of a landfill that we

136
00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,320
could address and clean up
pretty quickly.

137
00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:51,120
And it was took me a while, took
several years digging through

138
00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,360
documents to finally realize I
was dealing with something a lot

139
00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,720
bigger than that.
And it was something that was

140
00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,920
impacting a lot of folks, not
just that farmer and his family,

141
00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:04,200
but this was a contamination
that was possibly spreading

142
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,320
across the whole community, but
not the whole country in the

143
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,840
whole world.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm sure

144
00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,080
it was pulling on your
heartstrings too, a little bit

145
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,360
like, OK.
And after you saw some of the

146
00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,680
evidence that he provided you,
you're like, Oh my God, we have

147
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,800
to do something.
You can't just ignore.

148
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,360
It absolutely, you know, not
only did we get the chance,

149
00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,280
obviously to talk to Mr. Tennant
and his wife and see all of the

150
00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,120
photographs and the videotapes
and hear about how this was

151
00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,440
really, you know, devastating
his family.

152
00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,400
But to visit the farm and to
visit the the other family

153
00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,679
members and to see, you know,
that this was a real problem for

154
00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,360
folks that were, they were
struggling with it every day and

155
00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,160
really felt like we had the
ability to help them.

156
00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,440
We helped big companies like
DuPont.

157
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,760
We didn't represent DuPont, but
we we worked with big companies.

158
00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,320
And if we had the ability to
maybe fix this problem, again,

159
00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,040
these were people in the
community my mom grew up in.

160
00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,080
This is something we ought to
do.

161
00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,200
And I was fortunate to be able
to to be at a law firm that let

162
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,000
me do.
It in the movie, though, there

163
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,200
were sometimes I think that the
law firm was getting a little

164
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:20,720
nervous about the cost that was
going into funding the, the work

165
00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:22,720
you were doing on behalf of the
plaintiffs.

166
00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,960
Talk a little bit if you could,
like the challenge and the and

167
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,640
the, you know, the stress that
that caused because in the

168
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,560
movie, you know, I think you
went to the hospital over, you

169
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,040
know, talk a little bit, if you
could about that, because that's

170
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,360
important.
Yeah, You know, after we

171
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,960
realized that this was a problem
that was much bigger than Mr.

172
00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,840
Tennant and the the one farm of
West Virginia, Yeah, we made

173
00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,560
this decision to launch a big
class action lawsuit against

174
00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:55,640
DuPont and using a law that
really hadn't been used much

175
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,200
before.
So we here we were bringing, you

176
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,400
know, this big class action
against one of the world's

177
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,800
biggest chemical companies and
owner completely unregulated

178
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,360
chemical under new laws.
It was a big risk and it dragged

179
00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,600
on for several years.
And it wasn't clear how that was

180
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,040
going to shake out.
And then even once we settled

181
00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,720
that case, we had set up this
process to to have scientists

182
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,520
figure out what the chemical
could really do to people.

183
00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,640
And at the time, you know, we
thought again, that would be

184
00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,520
hopefully wrapped up in a year
or so.

185
00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,240
And it stretched out over 7
years.

186
00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:34,640
And during that time, it just so
happened to be the point in time

187
00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,520
where we had this massive
economic meltdown going on in

188
00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,120
our country, 2008.
Right.

189
00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:44,640
So here's money going out the
door and all these years of cost

190
00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,160
building up and building up.
So very stressful because in the

191
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,440
meantime, not only was, you
know, this costing a lot for the

192
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,440
law firm, that you had people
getting sick in that community,

193
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,320
people waiting for these
answers.

194
00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,760
So a lot of pressures built up
during that.

195
00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:00,840
Period.
Oh, yeah, I can only imagine.

196
00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:05,840
And I'm sure the hours you spent
like this was your sole job.

197
00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,760
There wasn't any other thing you
were really doing.

198
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:13,000
This was 100%, probably 60 to 80
hours a week this job, right?

199
00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,000
Yeah.
I mean, by the time we had

200
00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:20,160
resolved that, that big class
action lawsuit and we're waiting

201
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,920
for the science panel in most,
almost all of what I was doing

202
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,920
was working on this case.
And you know, because a lot of

203
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,240
the corporate clients weren't
necessarily calling me at that

204
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,080
point.
So it was a lot of stress.

205
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,440
Oh, I can imagine.
You know, the EPA now has come

206
00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,240
out in, what is it September of
last year, I think it was where

207
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:46,720
they came out or and said, OK,
we've established MCLS for P

208
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,720
Foss largely based on a lot of
the UCMR data that was collected

209
00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,200
and the information you provided
and seeing the lawsuits.

210
00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,960
Where do we stand now because
they came out and said we're

211
00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:05,240
regulating the long chain, the 2
long chains down to four parts

212
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:10,320
per trillion and the six or four
of the six shorter chain ones

213
00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,880
down as as well, the Gen.
X ones, right.

214
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,240
And now it went into rule, I
guess the law, but I don't know

215
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,280
if it actually like really
officially implemented.

216
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,480
I'm kind of thinking because
there was a lawsuit that just

217
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:29,880
was submitted by the industry
about no, that's not so is that

218
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:34,840
rule like in a stay position?
It's not really a in in play.

219
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,280
Maybe talk about that.
And then also the recent

220
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,600
announcement for the new
administration that they want to

221
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:46,480
pull back the, the, the, the new
MCLS for the four shorter chain

222
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,480
compounds and study them
further.

223
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,520
Yeah, it's it gets pretty
complicated because as you

224
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,800
mentioned, we had the USEPA
right, kind of at the end of the

225
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,440
prior administration announced
official MCLS, enforceable

226
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,080
drinking water standards for I
believe it was 6 different P

227
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,960
Foss including the two that we
know the most about PFOAPFOS,

228
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,120
the C8 long chain, right.
And they also announced rules

229
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,960
that they were going to regulate
those two PFOA and PFOS is

230
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,080
hazardous substances under
Superfund.

231
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:27,600
Those laws became effective, but
they had implementation periods

232
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,480
that they would be phased in
over time.

233
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,080
And when the new administration
came in with the drinking water

234
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:38,080
rule, they have stood by and are
keeping the two drinking water

235
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,040
standards for PFOA and PFOS
stated that they were going to

236
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:47,600
pull back the standards for the
other ones and re evaluate those

237
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,440
and possibly resubmit them
again.

238
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,600
We don't know yet.
And in the meantime, there were

239
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,800
lawsuits filed as you indicated
by industry and I think some of

240
00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:00,400
the water associations against
the water rule and also industry

241
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,400
filed lawsuits to try to stop
the Superfund designation.

242
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,440
Those lawsuits are still
pending.

243
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,440
They haven't been resolved yet.
And after the new administration

244
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,800
came in, what's been happening
is we keep seeing extensions of

245
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,880
time, stays of that litigation
to give the EPA time to figure

246
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,040
out what position are they going
to take.

247
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,360
So we unfortunately just don't
know yet.

248
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,360
What we do know is there's going
to be more time for folks to

249
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,120
comply with the drinking water
rules that's been extended.

250
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,400
Two years right to 2031 now.
It's been extended and and at a

251
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,600
minimum at least we have PFOA
and PFOSMCLS remaining

252
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,200
effective.
Oh, that's good to hear.

253
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,720
I mean, and and you know, if
you're in the process of

254
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,840
treating P phos contamination
and you're going to try to get

255
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,840
those two out of your system,
that system will more than

256
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,720
likely take out the.
Other one Hello ET Nation, I

257
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,720
want to thank you for listening
to the podcast.

258
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,640
If you're enjoying the
interviews we bring you,

259
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,640
consider supporting the program
by visiting my website.

260
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,960
At seankgrady.com.
And buy me a cup of coffee.

261
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,880
Proceeds will go towards helping
me continue producing timely

262
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,520
content and offset production
costs.

263
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,760
I'd also like to take a moment
and recognize a few of our

264
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,440
sponsors of the show who have
been amazing partners and our ET

265
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,320
Nation legends.
You're looking for a drilling

266
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,160
and environmental contracting
firm to help you delineate the

267
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,640
extent of contamination at your
site, and look no further than

268
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,720
Cascade Environmental.
Cascade has over 37 offices

269
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,040
across the country and offers a
huge range of environmental and

270
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,920
geotechnical drilling, site
characterization, and

271
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,840
remediation services.
With their huge fleet of

272
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:49,120
equipment nationwide coverage,
Cascade is a great choice to

273
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,800
support your environmental and
infrastructure needs.

274
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,280
To learn more, check out their
website at Cascade dash env dot.

275
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,720
Com.
That's cascade-env.com.

276
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,400
Hey, are you looking for an
equipment rental company to help

277
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,920
you with your next wastewater
remediation or waste management

278
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,880
project?
E Tank is the only environmental

279
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,640
equipment rental company in the
industry that offers 100%

280
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,440
guaranteed certified clean
temporary liquid storage tanks

281
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,480
at no additional cost.
This protocol gives Peace of

282
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,960
Mind for the previous customer
by limiting their downstream

283
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,760
liability as well as the future
customer by preventing any cross

284
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,800
contamination for all of their
rental tanks.

285
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,840
E Tank also runs a one-of-a-kind
complete maintenance program for

286
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,720
all rental items including
liquid tight roll off

287
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,600
containers, fluid transfer pumps
and filtration items.

288
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,720
The next time you are presented
with an environmental challenge,

289
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,200
call E Tank to come up with the
solution for your problem.

290
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,520
I want to thank one of our
sponsors, Waste Link.

291
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,320
Waste Link is the all in one
software platform transforming

292
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,080
how environmental professionals
manage waste, connecting

293
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,040
generators and service providers
and disposal facilities in a way

294
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,200
that is simple, connected and
transparent.

295
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,200
Your platform helps streamline
everything from waste profiling

296
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,400
and routing to inventory
management and billing.

297
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,160
Giving you the tools.
You need to operate more

298
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,760
efficiently and reduce cost.
Whether you're a generator

299
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,000
looking for better options or a
service provider seeking greater

300
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,520
efficiency, Wastelink has you
covered if you're ready to.

301
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,440
Take control.
Of your waste management

302
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,760
processes and optimize your
business.

303
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,400
Visit wastelink.com to schedule
a demo today.

304
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,720
So what states do you think are
like the first movers and

305
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,320
adopters of establishing their
own P FOS levels for industry in

306
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,480
their state?
I think we've had several states

307
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,160
that have really sort of led the
way on the science on P FOS.

308
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,480
In fact, even the USEPA has
looked to the folks within these

309
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,080
states.
States like New Jersey, which

310
00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,720
have adopted some of the very
first state enforceable MCLS in

311
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,200
Minnesota is another as well.
Other states have started to

312
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,520
move forward and unfortunately
those are states that have

313
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,520
really good toxicologist risks
assessors.

314
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,760
They have programs to do this.
There are a number of states

315
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,400
though, that don't don't have
those resources and have been

316
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,680
waiting for the federal
standards or they've got laws

317
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,440
that don't allow them to be any
different from the federal

318
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,720
standards.
So unfortunately there are a

319
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,720
number of places throughout the
country that are dependent on

320
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,080
what the USEPA does.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

321
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,000
And, and you're right.
And I used to be a former

322
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,320
regulator in Indiana and yeah, I
don't believe they have the

323
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,120
resources.
They're they, they would

324
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:45,160
definitely default to the EPA
standard and I can see that.

325
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,280
What's your take on the, you
know, the drinking water

326
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,800
utilities and how they're
responding to this rule and

327
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,160
addressing the contamination in
their systems?

328
00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:01,000
Because I kind of feel for them.
They didn't 'cause this, but

329
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,160
they're required to fix it.
There's not enough money to go

330
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,240
around to actually support them
from a state funded type

331
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,120
support.
It seems like I know that the,

332
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,640
the infrastructure bill was
supposed to allocate a lot of

333
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,200
money, but it really wasn't
enough adequately.

334
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,920
And then the ratepayers are the
the, the innocent bystanders

335
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,600
here that are really paying in a
lot of ways and talk a little

336
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,160
bit about your what you see
there.

337
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,800
Exactly.
You know, the part of the one of

338
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,560
the main victims of all of this
are really the the water

339
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,080
suppliers.
You know, these folks didn't put

340
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,360
the pee fuss in the water yet.
They're the ones that are

341
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:42,000
getting stuck with the bills to
try to now comply with these

342
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,880
drinking water standards and to
try to figure out how do we get

343
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,600
this out of the water.
And we, we're representing

344
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,840
hundreds of water supplies all
across the country that are

345
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,640
facing this issue.
And one of the things we've been

346
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,240
trying to do is make sure that
those costs don't get pushed

347
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,760
onto the ratepayers, or at least
as much of that cost as

348
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,160
possible.
It's placed on the people who

349
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,080
really are responsible, and
that's the people who created

350
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,680
these chemicals.
So that's why you see all this

351
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,000
litigation and that's been going
on across the country against

352
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,400
the makers of those chemicals
and firefighting phones to make

353
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,200
sure those costs.
Don't get pushed onto the

354
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,640
cities.
And that's what led to these

355
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,800
recent settlements of, you know,
billions of dollars from three M

356
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,840
DuPont and Tycho BASF, you know,
to to to go out toward the water

357
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,640
suppliers to help them.
And as you mentioned, the

358
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,240
federal government has also
allocated billions.

359
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,960
And yes, it'll probably still
cost more than that, but at

360
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,640
least we're trying to do
everything we can to make sure

361
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,560
that as much of those costs as
possible don't get pushed onto

362
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,400
the victims of the contaminants.
Yeah, and and I, that's only

363
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,920
fair.
I mean, and I look at it and

364
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,560
it's, it is a travesty, but it
does feel like maybe I just not

365
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,240
seeing it, but I, I feel like
the utilities could be a little

366
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,560
more vocal and, you know, and
also supportive of this

367
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:10,520
situation, But maybe they are.
I again, it's it's a problem

368
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:11,720
that is really hard to deal
with.

369
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:17,920
And and then I think that the
regulating pop P Foss as a rate,

370
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,160
you know, hazardous substance
under CERCLA opens up a whole

371
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:23,920
different can of worms, doesn't
it?

372
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,760
I mean, now you've got, you
know, all appropriate inquiries

373
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,600
that it opens up, you know,
you've got the circle of

374
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,040
liability potential.
Now a lot of states are looking

375
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,440
at this like, well, we've got
remediation programs.

376
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,760
Maybe we have to reassess a site
now that we never anticipated

377
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,720
foreclosure, that we already
gave closure for kind of

378
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,320
harkening back to like the vapor
intrusion era when that came

379
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:47,360
out.
Well, we have to reopen some.

380
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,680
So what is?
Is circular really the best

381
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,760
regulatory framework to to
manage this and could it be a

382
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,040
different process?
I think you've highlighted some

383
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,440
issues which really help explain
why there's a huge debate going

384
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,560
on right now over the Superfund
designation and, you know,

385
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,240
possible RECRA rules coming out
and other ways to try to

386
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,520
regulate these chemicals.
Because really the, the main

387
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,800
thrust here has been want that
this desire to make sure that

388
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,680
the people who created these
chemicals are the ones

389
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,920
responsible for the cleanups.
And, you know, one of the ways

390
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,720
that was thought to do that was,
you know, well, let's designate

391
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,560
them hazardous under the
Superfund law.

392
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,440
What makes the polluter pay?
And there's been real concern,

393
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,000
though, about whether that's the
way it'll work and whether those

394
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,160
costs are are possibly going to
actually get shifted down to the

395
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,880
victims, to the water providers.
For example, when they clean the

396
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,960
stuff out of the water and they
end up with spent carbon or

397
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,840
other material that's
contaminated with these

398
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,920
materials, suddenly they're now
generating this waste that's

399
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,400
going out as hazardous under the
Superfund law.

400
00:22:58,400 --> 00:22:59,680
That's going to increase their
cost.

401
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:05,280
So there's a real push and a lot
of debate going on right now as

402
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,000
to whether there should be
exemptions for certain sort of

403
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,840
innocent.
Landfills, landfills come to

404
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,240
mind.
I mean, they've got leachate and

405
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,680
they'll treat it, but then
there's some levels of that

406
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,680
material that may, you know,
leak a little bit and they

407
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,880
didn't 'cause it.
They just were the receivers of

408
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,920
it.
And now under Circla, they can

409
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,000
be a super fund PRP.
Exactly.

410
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,840
And so that's why you see, you
know, a real concern being

411
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,440
raised by water providers, by
landfill owners, airports, other

412
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,840
folks that are concerned about
where those costs are going to

413
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,840
end up.
And, yeah, there's been

414
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,560
recognition that maybe we need
even a new law.

415
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,920
You know, something I had back
in, I think it was 2021, you had

416
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,920
new legislation proposed by
Senator Gillibrand out of New

417
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,200
York and others that were
looking at, you know, how do we

418
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,240
make sure that these costs
actually get placed on the

419
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,480
people that created the
chemicals and not the downstream

420
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,880
folks?
And that was called the PFOS

421
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,040
Accountability Act.
And it was introduced and really

422
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,920
didn't go anywhere, never even
got hearings.

423
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,760
It got reintroduced just
recently, another year or so

424
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,840
ago, and again, didn't go
anywhere.

425
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,200
But so I think it highlights
that folks are really searching

426
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,840
for what's the most effective
way to make sure the right

427
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,840
people, the people that actually
caused the problem, are the ones

428
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,680
who pay these costs.
And that's, that's incredibly

429
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,200
difficult in our legal system,
right?

430
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,880
Now yeah, I can.
I can only imagine.

431
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,560
Well, I definitely feel like my
personal opinion is it shouldn't

432
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,800
be in circle ish problem, maybe
be in RECRA or or maybe a new

433
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,960
law, right that you just
mentioned, which would be great.

434
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,840
And I think that would be
appropriate.

435
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,360
But let's see where the
government goes with that and

436
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,960
legal minds, you know, help
shape that narrative and

437
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,480
conversation.
That would be great.

438
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,600
You know, when you look to the
future, where do you see

439
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,640
technology helping or or
opportunities that they can help

440
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,760
address some of these
contamination situations we have

441
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,760
in our hands?
I think there's an unbelievable

442
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,200
opportunities that are presented
right now in the PFOS world on

443
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,480
the technology side.
I mean, you're, you're dealing

444
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,720
with these chemicals that are
pervasive in our soil, our

445
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:27,200
water, food, animals, plants,
people, air, I mean, the entire

446
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,160
planet contaminated and some of
these chemicals being of the

447
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,080
nature that they'll be there
virtually forever, millions of

448
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,240
years, if not longer.
And so we need ways effective

449
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,320
technologies for actually
removing, getting rid of this

450
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,960
stuff because everything we've
pumped out since the 1940s,

451
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,920
which is still there.
So yes, we can filter the water.

452
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,800
We could be, there are
technologies that already exist

453
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,800
for getting this out of our
drinking water, but getting it

454
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,760
out of the aquifers, getting it
out of the streams, getting it

455
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,000
out of the lakes, getting it out
of the soils.

456
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:03,880
Those are very difficult
challenges, but it's creating

457
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,600
incredible opportunities because
the market for this is so huge

458
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,840
that I think you're seeing a lot
of folks jumping in trying to

459
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,200
develop those technologies.
Now how do we, how do we, can we

460
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,840
burn it?
Can we incinerate it?

461
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,680
Can we use plasma?
You know, there's all these

462
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,560
different technologies being
developed, and I think the

463
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,200
people in that field have just
some incredible opportunities

464
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,360
before.
I know that the designation of

465
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:35,040
PFOS as a hazardous substance is
having a pretty sizable effect

466
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,840
on the waste industry.
A lot of companies, even

467
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,040
landfill firms, they're like,
well, we don't want to start

468
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,000
taking this anymore.
We need to, you know, I think we

469
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,640
just you guys go incinerate that
or find out maybe deep well or

470
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,480
other, you know, scenario.
But you know, talk about if you

471
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,800
could have you sensed that?
I mean, because it's a, there's

472
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,920
a lot of bent up or there's not
a lot of capacity to treat all

473
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,800
of the peep postets out there.
I mean, that's another challenge

474
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,000
I think industry's faced with.
They're like, we don't have

475
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,040
enough capacity to treat
everything if it's going to go

476
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,640
like incineration.
Absolutely.

477
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,360
And in fact, part of the problem
is too that the laws are also

478
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:13,400
changing there.
You have jurisdictions that are

479
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,560
now preventing or prohibiting
incineration or are saying we

480
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,720
don't want this being brought in
to our states or you know, it's

481
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,200
so it's, and then now you've got
sort of this inconsistent

482
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,120
patchwork, you know, across the
country and internationally as

483
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:29,800
well.
Now we we see some companies

484
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,280
that are trying to ship this
stuff overseas or from overseas

485
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,160
back into the US to try to
figure out where to dispose of

486
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,120
it.
So it's sort of the Wild West

487
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:43,080
out there right now as far as
what can you do with it, What is

488
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,200
allowed, where is it allowed,
you know, and how long.

489
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,040
Yeah, I, I've, I've just noticed
there's a lot of firms that are

490
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:54,440
just like it's we can take it in
has waste landfill, but we're

491
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,760
not taking it non has in the
unregulated portion portions of

492
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:58,920
it.
They just don't want to deal

493
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,800
with the future liability,
right.

494
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,760
And and that's the big
challenge.

495
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,880
You know, earlier you did
mention during the speech that

496
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,680
there's a lot of activity around
PFOS in, in and around the

497
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,320
world, like in Europe or
Australia.

498
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,960
There are a lot of other
countries that are dealing with

499
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:21,720
the same type of issues that
we're dealing here from pretty

500
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,720
much the same type of chemical
manufacturer facilities that are

501
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,560
there.
Can you, have you been involved

502
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,320
or have you been able to talk to
other country leaders you know,

503
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,080
that are dealing with and, and,
and what's their take on how

504
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,320
they're addressing it?
Yeah, I have.

505
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,080
I've had the opportunity to
speak with folks at the EU and

506
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,200
the UK and the Australian
government and the French as

507
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,320
well that are folks that when
they're trying to figure out

508
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,240
what would be the most effective
laws and what do we know about

509
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,920
the science.
And so trying to really help

510
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,400
these folks understand what do
we know and what is known about

511
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,200
this.
And So what you've seen is,

512
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,520
yeah, we're we're seeing sort of
an awakening across across the

513
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,680
planet that people are
realizing, wait a minute, we're

514
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,840
finding the same chemicals in
the water in Japan and Australia

515
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,920
and Europe and what's going on
here?

516
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,280
And I think they're trying to
grasp, is this the same stuff?

517
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,760
Is it different from what we
were dealing with in the US?

518
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,520
And the laws are different and
the their approaches are

519
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,160
different.
So you end up with varying

520
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,680
approaches to how these other
countries are trying to address

521
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,960
it.
And we know, I'm just trying to

522
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,680
make sure that I can do what I
can to help them at least know

523
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,160
what we know and what is what
information is available.

524
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,600
Is it a lot of these places when
they find these chemicals,

525
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,600
they're thinking, oh, this is
something new.

526
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,360
Nobody knows enough anything
about it.

527
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,120
And we gosh, we need me When you
start doing all these studies.

528
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,520
No, we've got a lot of studies.
We've got a lot of data.

529
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,320
Let's let's move forward and not
redo a lot of it.

530
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,280
So it's a, it's a.
It's very confusing in a lot of

531
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,480
places, right?
Now, yeah, it really is.

532
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,240
So it's probably fair to say
that you you're in large amounts

533
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,960
of ongoing litigation, a lot of
cases across the country, yeah.

534
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,160
There's a lot of litigation
still going on.

535
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,240
You know, as I mentioned, in
addition to all the water

536
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,200
systems we've been dealing with,
you know, you've got claims

537
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,440
we're representing a number of
States and dealing with trying

538
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,600
to make sure their natural
resources are protected.

539
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,880
And you've got individual cases
now being filed by thousands of

540
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,840
people across the country are
concerned about cancer and other

541
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,720
health effects.
And now you're seeing a lot of

542
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,360
litigation we're not necessarily
as involved in with, you know,

543
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,240
companies being sued that are
sort of downstream, you know,

544
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,920
that whose products have been
found to have these chemicals in

545
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,760
them.
So it's unfortunately the

546
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,120
litigation is only growing.
And it's not just here in the

547
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,520
US.
It's starting now overseas as

548
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:53,360
well.
Wow.

549
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,200
You know, I do feel like there
is an awareness now in industry

550
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,680
manufacturers are trying to, you
know, eliminate P FOS chemicals

551
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,840
and their products.
They're advertising PP FOS free

552
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:11,000
and it seems like education wise
and I guess corporate steward

553
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,520
being a good company steward,
you know, is having a big impact

554
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,240
a little bit.
There's a change, there's a

555
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,680
shift, but obviously it sounds
like we need more, right?

556
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,480
Yes, and I think consumers are
really driving a lot of that.

557
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,120
Even though the laws are
starting to change, a lot of

558
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,080
that hasn't happened yet.
A lot of it's still being

559
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,440
debated among the law of the
lawmakers and policy makers.

560
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,360
But in the meantime, consumers
have started to become aware

561
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,000
films and other outreach efforts
and you know, they're starting

562
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,720
to say, well, I'm not going to
wait for the law to say this

563
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,200
shouldn't be in the product.
I don't want it in the stuff I'm

564
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,720
buying today.
So they're they're reaching out

565
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,200
to the big retailers and saying
we don't want these chemicals in

566
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,200
our products.
And we're seeing the impact of

567
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,600
that.
Some of the biggest retailers in

568
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,320
the planet have you know, fast
food makers, fast food wrapper

569
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,320
makers, clothing, carp carpeting
and all these companies coming

570
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,120
out and voluntarily saying we're
going to take these chemicals

571
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,520
out of our products now.
And you know, a lot of times

572
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,320
that's difficult because which
chemicals are you talking about

573
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,840
when you say P Phos free, which
chemicals are you including and

574
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,480
that what detection level is P
Phos free?

575
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,560
So it's difficult, but at least
you're seeing awareness that

576
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,960
that is an issue and consumers
are are driving that.

577
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,320
And that's good.
You know, they're putting their

578
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,120
money where their mouth is.
They want to buy the products

579
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,800
that are, you know, lining up
with their values.

580
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,640
And that's really good.
You know, another topic you hit

581
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,080
on I thought was quite
interesting is that you talk

582
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,680
about SDS documents and you
know, when you're looking at the

583
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,600
chemical makeup of a product and
it says proprietary, I don't

584
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,480
know how many SDSS I've seen
like that, like hundreds of

585
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,920
them.
And it's not disclosing the

586
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,160
actual chemical.
And you know, we're

587
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,960
environmental professionals here
in this at this attending this

588
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:07,280
conference and it's our job to
report on, you know, chemical

589
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:12,600
exposure to potential to admit
or or cause harm.

590
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,240
And if you can't get that
information from your SD S S and

591
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,480
you're unknowingly exposing
your, your coworkers or your,

592
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,800
you know, customers, it's not
good.

593
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,240
Now, and that that's been a,
that's been a, a problem going

594
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,040
back quite some time, at least
with these chemicals, as you

595
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,000
indicated, unfortunately, a lot
of times this was considered

596
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,120
proprietary confidential
information.

597
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,520
What's what's in the secret
sauce, you know, that's got

598
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,760
these chemicals on.
And even when the companies

599
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,120
finally did start revealing some
of that in their material safety

600
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:51,080
data sheets, you saw continuing
misrepresentations about what

601
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,760
the effects were.
You know, this is the no, no

602
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,520
possibility of harm or there's
no evidence that this could

603
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,080
cause risk of harm.
And so, you know, it's one thing

604
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,160
to disclose it and then it's
whether the chemicals even

605
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,880
there.
But then you need accurate

606
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,760
information about what the
risks.

607
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,159
Also, particularly when if
you're the only company making

608
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:14,280
it or you have the information
about what those risks are, you

609
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,880
need to be transparent about
what they really are.

610
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,239
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, totally agree.

611
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:25,120
And well, where do you see next
few years now in the forecast

612
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,760
because you know, now we're
going to look forward.

613
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,560
I mean, we've been looking
backwards about, you know,

614
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,000
what's transpired and the
amazing work you've done.

615
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,800
And I personally feel like you
single handedly have been the

616
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,840
the driving force of the EPA
regulating this material.

617
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,199
And thank you for doing that and
and all your tireless efforts.

618
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,400
But where do you see them moving
forward?

619
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,440
I think, I guess I'd remain
optimistic that we're going to

620
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,480
can see continuing efforts to
really regulate and control

621
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,920
these chemicals.
I think not only do we have the

622
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,760
public now demanding it, I think
you have a lot of lawmakers, a

623
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,320
lot of folks within the
scientific community now that do

624
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,960
understand enough about these
chemicals and realize the real

625
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,480
risk they present to human
health and the environment that

626
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,560
this is now perceived as a real
public health threat issue.

627
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,520
Yeah.
There's going to be economic

628
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,840
impact because these chemicals
are are so pervasive within not

629
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,800
only our economy, but the world
economy.

630
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,840
Yeah, it's going to cost money.
But I think we also know that

631
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,160
we've got society now that's
also keenly concerned about

632
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,480
public health.
And, you know, this is something

633
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:34,000
that we hopefully can do
something about.

634
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,120
And, you know, these are
chemicals that we know enough

635
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,920
about now to actually do
something.

636
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:46,440
Robert, I, I, you're like my
environmental hero and you

637
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,000
should be on the Mount Rushmore
Environmental Heroes.

638
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,120
So I want to thank you for
taking the time to come and

639
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,800
speak with me and our audience
here on the Environmental

640
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,800
Transformation Podcast and also
our fantastic members and

641
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,960
attendees of the EHS Hazmat
Summit that we're all

642
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,600
environmental professionals
trying to do better and make our

643
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,640
world better place to live and
comply with the rules and laws.

644
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,680
And so we really thank you for
coming and sharing your story,

645
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,960
just an amazing story and, and
continue doing what you're

646
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,240
doing.
We're here to support you any

647
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:23,360
way we can and so really
appreciate you well.

648
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,040
Thanks so much, it's a pleasure.
All right, Robert, thank you so

649
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:29,640
much.
Thanks for listening and

650
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,960
watching the show.
If you enjoyed the show then

651
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,640
please share it with your
friends and coworkers on social

652
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,800
media and tell somebody in
person.

653
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,120
Thanks for being with us, ET
Nation.