PFAS Regulation in Flux: Legal Insights from Environmental Attorney Phil Comella

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When you eliminate the standard
that the prior administration

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said was necessary to protect
human healthy environment, then

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you take it away.
You're sending a message either

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A we they don't care about
health environment B the prior

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science is wrong, which is fine.
Could be, yeah, but.

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Maybe it was, but maybe it was
wrong, but you're showing some

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indecisiveness on something that
you need confidence in.

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Welcome to the Environmental
Transformation Podcast, where we

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bring you interviews with
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I'm your host, Sean Grady, and
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Now let's get started today's.
Guest is Phil Camilla.

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Bill is a practicing attorney in
the environmental industry.

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Well, he's a practicing attorney
doing environmental law.

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He's at over 40 years of
experience practicing

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environmental law.
He is a 1983 graduate of George

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Washington University Law
School, and he began his career

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in house for the country's
largest solid waste and

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hazardous waste company.
During a period when Congress

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had just passed the amendments
to the Resource Conservation and

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Recovery Act in Superfund, he
played a central role in

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interpreting new rules,
preparing rulemaking comments,

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and negotiating with state and
federal agencies over compliance

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issues.
He served in the private sector

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now for over 23 years with
Seyfarth and Shaw, and also six

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years at Freeborn and Peters.
And now he's currently heads up

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the Chicago Environmental Group
for STAT, Tafts, Statenius and

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Hollister.
He's widely published on array

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of environmental issues
including P Foss landfill gas,

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brownfields and assorted waste
issues, and currently is

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handling roughly around 15
different P Foss cases, those

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involving water utilities and
cross boundary pollution.

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Phil, welcome to the show.
Hey, it's great being here,

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Sean.
Thanks for asking me.

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Absolutely.
Well, you know, I was reaching

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out to one of our fellow
comrades, Bill Wagner, one of

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your your attorney buddies there
at Taft.

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And I said, hey, I'm looking to
talk to somebody at Taft that we

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can explore this new proposed
EPA PFOS rule that's just been

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announced.
And what they're proposing to do

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is to peel back some of their
rule making MCLS for about four

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or five of the OR six of the
different compounds.

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And we're keeping two of them
and extending some of the

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compliance deadlines.
And I figured we'd be a good

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opportunity to talk with an
attorney who could put some

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perspective on what this impact
may have on industry and or, you

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know, the the EPA in general.
So, you know, Hey Phil, thanks

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for joining.
Sure.

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If you could, Phil, could you
give us a little bit of, you

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know, maybe what the new rule
proposed rule is, is proposing

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to change and, and break it down
a little bit for us in, in a

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little more detail than what I
just described.

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Sure.
OK.

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So it's important to sort of get
a big picture of what the rule

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making process is all about.
And the rule making process,

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which is the way government
agencies make laws or

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regulations, always begins with
a proposed rule.

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So the so the steps are proposed
rule in the Federal Register.

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It has to be published and then
they announce that they're

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taking comments and then the
agency is supposed to consider

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those comments and then issue a
final rule.

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And the final rule is supposed
to be a logical outgrowth of the

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proposed rule.
The final rule published doesn't

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mean that it will be fixed for
all time because there's always

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this thing called the appellate
practice or legal challenges to

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a final rule.
We see that all the time.

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OK, as a little background, all
we have from the current

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administration is an
announcement that they intend to

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issue a proposed rule.
We don't have a proposed rule

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yet.
There's nothing in the Federal

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Register.
So what we're seeing this is

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sort of a, sort of a version of
an executive order.

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It's, it's a policy statement,
it's a, it's a, it's a vision

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statement.
And were there were two of these

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statements issued late spring.
And I and, and the one in

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particular was issued on May
14th where EPA did announce that

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they plan to do 2 significant
things, which is #1 keep the

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existing 4 parts per trillion
MCL for the 2 main P boss, which

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is PFOA and PFOS.
But also, but, but for them,

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they would extend for those 2P
fast, they would extend the

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compliance deadline applicable
to water treatment systems.

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So the line would go from 2029
to 2031.

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So stopping there for a second,
what that says is that the

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actual benefit to the public
from these standards would be

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delayed for two years.
The goal is to have cleaner

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water to drink.
Then that goal would not be

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achieved until 2031 instead of
2029.

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So I'll stop there.
There's there's another, you

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know, the other.
Right, right.

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Deals with the other P Fox but
but to me that's the big it it's

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it's it's not legally affected
yet and it's not going to be

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legally effective until if
there's a final rule.

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So.
It does.

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It does show you where the new
administration's going.

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Yeah, yeah, it seems like they
threw up a a balloon up in the

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air to test balloon just to see,
hey, what is this going to stick

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and and how will will industry
respond?

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And it seems like currently
there's also a lot of, you know,

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pushback from NGOs and other,
you know, chemical industry

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people is also probably putting
more comments in being favorable

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for this new change I had
imagined.

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But I'm not really sure, you
know, not sure I, I've seen a

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lot of response yet.
But you make a great point in

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that, you know, the rule that
currently sits is still the rule

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with it's, it's just because
they proposed this doesn't mean

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it's in place.
And so we still have all the

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MCLS for all the chemicals that
were proposed or that were in

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the rule that made last year.
So that's what we're working

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under at the moment with the
deadline to implement these

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changes of water treatment for
the public by 2029.

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Right, right.
The rule right now is that by

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2029 water utilities have to
achieve the MCL for the two

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PFAS.
I mentioned PFOS and P along

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with the other four which have
their own acronyms, you know,

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Gen.
X&IPFHX, S&P, FNA, the more.

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But the, the issue with that is
obviously the more chemicals

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regulated that might cause
disease, injury, et cetera, the

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better.
But we're seeing this, you know,

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the couple things going on here,
obviously there's politics going

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on, there's industry input.
And then in, in some, you know,

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we sort of have a battle between
the water utilities, which it's

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hard to be critical of that
industry and, and save drinking

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water because you could issue
bottom line, you could issue all

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the regulations you want.
If the technology isn't there to

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treat it or if the economics
don't support it, it's not going

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to happen.
So, so it's, it's really a, you

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know, this is really sort of a
tension here between maybe what

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the right thing to do is, which
is to drive these standards to,

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to effectiveness and, and the
ability to do it technically so.

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That's attention.
Then I'm curious to to maybe

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explore what you think is the
motivation behind the EPA is

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proposing these this change.
I mean, do you think it's just

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the fact that potentially this
has been or possibly this has

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been an unfunded mandate across
the industry for utilities to

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actually, you know, put the
treatment facilities in place by

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2029 and they're just giving a
breathing room?

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Or is it just the onerous nature
and potential litigation

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concerns of, you know, these
this level of P Foss chemicals

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at at these low levels for
certain chemicals?

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I mean, I'm just curious what
you think the motivation is

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behind this.
Well, I don't think there's,

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it's like anything else, there's
always contributing causes.

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I definitely think that the
water utilities have a big voice

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here.
There is something like I'm

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going to say let's say 50,000
water utilities.

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There's a lot in the country and
the cost of treating PFAS for

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bodies, water utilities is
significant.

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I know one example of a facility
that's installing PFOS

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treatment, it's $80 million and
so who pays for that That's and

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it would be the ratepayers.
Unfortunately, and that's not

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fair, right, Right.
Maybe a government grant and or

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defendants who manufacture the
PFOS.

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I mean, and there's lawsuits and
many of the cases I'm involved

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in and as you know, the multi
district litigation, South

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Carolina, the first phase of
that litigation is about water

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utilities ganging up on the
manufacturers to recover some of

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the cost of treating P fonts.
Only seems fair.

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Right.
Well, again, again, it's hard to

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argue with the equity of that
situation.

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It's really why should why
should a the water utility,

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which is same thing as saying
the ratepayer pay for an

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undisclosed contaminant.
And you know, you can make other

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arguments about, you know,
spreading that cost to innocent

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victims of the PFOS.
But you know, I but a lot of

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these water utilities and I'm
not an expert in water utility

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finances, but they are
government entities and so

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therefore they're funded by the
people or by I guess federal or

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state grants.
So that's clearly an issue.

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You know, I do think there
obviously is, there is this

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undertone in the new
administration of being not as

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obviously not as proactive with
environmental issues.

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And this is like a small little
thing when you think about.

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I think there are some people,
myself included, who are

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wondering whether they were
going to gut the MCLS or I mean,

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they still might.
Yeah, they may.

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But there was concern about,
well, if you really want to fix

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it, then just gut the program,
right?

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So, so there's definitely that.
But I do think this is a small,

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this is a small step sort of
away, away from sort of the

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Biden PFOS program for water for
water.

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And it's not as significant as
it could have been.

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I that's, that's sort of, you
know, a mixed bag that I they

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could have, they could have
tanked the whole MCL start, you

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know, withdrawn it start from
square one, etcetera.

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So.
Hello ET Nation, I want to thank

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00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:09,560
you for listening to the
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If you enjoy the interviews we
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228
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229
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00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:14,040
That's Sean K grady.com.
Now, let's dive back into this

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interview.
So, you know, this rule, the

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00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,920
proposed rule change that
they're proposing, I mean it, it

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00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:28,520
does give some other, I guess
support to communities they're

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00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,000
coming up with like, you know,
this outreach type support for

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00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,120
local municipalities that are
affected by this to help them

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00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,520
pay for treatment or, or things
like that.

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00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,400
But, you know, I think under the
Biden administration, there was

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a lot of set set aside under the
infrastructure bill.

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00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,480
And I looked at that and it they
allocated, you know, millions of

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dollars for each state and
depending on, you know, the size

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00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,320
of the state and population and
whatnot.

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00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:02,640
But when I looked at it, I felt
like it still isn't enough to

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00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:08,720
support the utilities and the
states through, you know, state

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00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,760
revolving loan, you know, state
revolving fund fund loans that,

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00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,160
that they could offer utilities
to, to pay for these types of

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00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,400
upgrades.
And I think not only are the,

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00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,160
the drinking water utilities are
affected, but the wastewater

249
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,600
facilities are, are affected by
this, this rule change too.

250
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,800
And that's not really getting a
lot of coverage in that.

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00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:33,440
And, and I'm kind of curious of,
you know, how is the

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00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,520
administration going to address
the, the cost concerns?

253
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,440
And maybe that is the real
reason why they're trying to

254
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,480
pull this back is just the cost
is is so enormous, enormous.

255
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,360
Yeah, yeah.
It's, it's, really, it's, it's,

256
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,920
it's very difficult to find
where the money's coming from

257
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,720
since I believe the EPA budget
has been slashed by what 50 to

258
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,240
50 to 80% in that, in that
range.

259
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,400
So it's sort of like trying to
trying to grow a business when

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00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,000
you're shrinking your staff.
I mean, it's, it's, they're,

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00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,520
they're opposite, it's opposite
initiatives going on here.

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00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,480
And you know, at the end of the
day, at the end of the day, it

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00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:20,319
really there needs to be the
money to, to accomplish the

264
00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:23,240
goal.
Now one thing to keep in mind

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00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:29,080
here that I think is important
is that there is this sort of

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00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,840
very bulky titled rule called
the unregulated contaminant rule

267
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,920
which I wish you know.
I think they should rename that

268
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:38,640
to make it more user friendly.
But in any.

269
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,240
Of them.
Yeah, yeah.

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00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,520
But in any event, under that
rule, all, all water utilities

271
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,160
have to test their water for P
Foss.

272
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,440
Now not all of them have, but a
lot of them have.

273
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,880
Now the statistics show that
something like I'm going to say

274
00:17:54,880 --> 00:18:00,600
about under 8% of water
utilities actually are producing

275
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:05,800
water exceeding the MCL.
So, so in terms of the whole

276
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,680
budget budgetary issue, you're
not talking about the whole

277
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,400
universe of water utility,
you're talking about 8%, which

278
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:17,120
is something I'm just something
like 5 to 6000.

279
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:23,240
OK, that's not insignificant,
but it helps the economics and

280
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:29,720
it helps, it helps, I think the,
the, the ability to finance

281
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,160
these improvements because we're
not going about the entire

282
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,320
industry and for, and let's face
it, we're, we're, we're used to

283
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,160
prioritizing, right?
Well, who's got the worst PFOS?

284
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,680
Let's fund them first.
So there's all sorts of, you

285
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,640
know, you have to sort of
allocate the resources where

286
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,760
it's going to do most, most
good, right?

287
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:56,640
And of those 5 or 6000 utilities
are affected, I mean, some of

288
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,560
those could be very large
utilities that are affecting

289
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:03,960
big, big populations too, right?
So, you know, it, it can, it's a

290
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,120
little bit of a, you got to
really look at the details, I

291
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:10,600
guess to really see, you know,
the impact of the exposure in

292
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,960
these communities with that.
But that's, that's a good point.

293
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,800
I mean, and maybe there's a, a
better way of evaluating that.

294
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,760
I think the UCMR 5, you know,
testing protocol is it's

295
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,520
effective, but I still think
there's some, I guess

296
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,440
improvements to that, that
treatment or testing protocol.

297
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,320
It could be made because there's
I think some judgement of when

298
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,480
you sample versus when you
shouldn't.

299
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,160
And, and I think there could be
a little more, you know,

300
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,080
rigidity to that process that
could be beneficial for the, you

301
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,880
know, exposed community or
potentially exposed community.

302
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:53,640
You know, it's, it's interesting
the rule to Phil, it doesn't

303
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,480
talk about that.
I'm aware of any of the

304
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,880
implications around it's being
classified as a hazardous

305
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,160
constituent.
And currently it's in as a

306
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,120
hazardous constituent under
CIRCLA.

307
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:11,120
And did they talk?
I mean is anybody floated any

308
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:13,600
ideas around the changing of
that?

309
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,720
Designation in Circla, if
they're going to change these

310
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,560
compounds and reduce the MC LS,
I mean, there's that, right?

311
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,960
That could have an effect.
It'd be like a domino effect,

312
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,600
right?
Right, right.

313
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,920
Well, you know, we're sort of
left with with the environmental

314
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:37,480
statutes that we have at hand.
And each of these statutes comes

315
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,080
from a different era generally
intended to deal with a

316
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,840
different problem.
I mean, Superfund Circlaw was

317
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:50,280
intended to deal with abandoned
hazardous waste sites and very

318
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,880
effective in dealing with
abandoned hazardous waste sites

319
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,040
where the owner wasn't able to
do the cleanup of a release

320
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,640
itself.
Now obviously it's broad and

321
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:07,480
beyond that, but but the, the
listing of the PFAS substances

322
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,080
as hazardous substances under
Superfund.

323
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:16,880
Now that is a that's a wild card
because nobody is really scoped

324
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:22,760
out how broad the effect that
particular listing might have.

325
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:29,240
Now subtly in in the current
administration, what's you know,

326
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:35,680
what's happening right now is
that obviously folks challenge

327
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,240
the Superfund listing.
Just like I said, final rule

328
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,680
comes out, final rule came out
listing PFAS is a has a

329
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,760
substance on the Superfund.
The lawsuits are filed and you

330
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,880
know, under the Biden
administration, UPA is going

331
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,840
gung ho support the listing
right now.

332
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,280
The Trump administration has
asked to stay the litigation,

333
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,400
continuing to stay that
litigation while it does

334
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,280
something.
I think the latest, I think the,

335
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,480
the latest report to the court
is due I think the first week of

336
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,800
July.
So that's very significant

337
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:18,120
because it's exactly the
opposite of the sort of the

338
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:24,640
energy and the, and the, and the
strategy that was put forward by

339
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,520
the prior administration, which
is, you know, the Superfund

340
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,160
listing was right up there with
MCL because Superfund was viewed

341
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,680
as the environmental remedial
statute.

342
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,800
Well, let's list PFOS.
So right now that's that it's

343
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:45,120
sort of up in the air on what's
going to happen with with the

344
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,720
Superfund.
But you know, I mean, you know,

345
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:49,360
the Superfund listening, but
you're right.

346
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,880
It's you have these, you know,
we're in a period of uncertainty

347
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,440
right now, frankly.
You're right.

348
00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:00,440
And, and I just think that the
cascading effect of that

349
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:06,600
decision to put it into circle
causes a lot of the business

350
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,800
concerns across the, the, the,
you know, the spectrum, whether

351
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,280
that's in, in, in redevelopment
of brownfield sites or you just

352
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,280
even, you know, properties that
are industrial sites.

353
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:24,280
I, I also have a lot of concern
around and I'm sure these, these

354
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,520
other entities do as well.
Well, you know, if you're say, a

355
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,640
solid waste landfill firm and,
and you are collecting waste

356
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,480
from people, you're not the
generator of the waste.

357
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:33,880
But now it's all in your
leachate.

358
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:36,880
And now, you know, what if your
leachate is, you know,

359
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,200
unfortunately migrating off site
for some reason because of you

360
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,800
got some challenges with design
Or what if your municipality and

361
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,760
your land applying your sludge
and you've been processing, you

362
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,080
know, unbeknownst to you, P Foss
impacted sludge.

363
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:55,000
And now all of a sudden the farm
fields are impacted and now

364
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,600
people want cleanups.
Well, under CERCLA, we know what

365
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,320
that looks like.
You know, the EPA goes after

366
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,160
those people, even though
they're really not the parties

367
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:06,560
that should be responsible for
it.

368
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,880
And, and I think that's the big,
you know, the tension between

369
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,840
this rule and, and the parties
that are potentially affected by

370
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,320
it.
And I don't think it's it's the

371
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,440
right program for dissident.
Right, right.

372
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,840
Yeah.
And I and I, I wrote a, A blog

373
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,920
on this or not, whatever it was
blog article, Superfund is not

374
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,720
the right tool.
I mean, when you look under the

375
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:34,800
cover, it's, it's really
Superfund applied to FIFA is

376
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:41,440
leads to absurd results and an
example that many people won't

377
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,720
believe.
But Superfund has no minimum

378
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:51,720
threshold of hazardousness.
If you find a hazardous

379
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,640
substance in a concentration
that is a hazardous, it's not

380
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,320
like a hazardous waste where it
has to be a certain

381
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,120
concentration or certain risk
level or whatever.

382
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,520
And so when you look at the
concentration levels for P POS,

383
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,800
theoretically, OK, you have one
part, you detected it, that's a

384
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,320
hazardous substance, OK.
So what's the clean up standard

385
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,600
and who contributed?
Who contributed that?

386
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,040
It it leads it.
It's it's it's almost like, I

387
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,440
mean, there's various laws out
there that are so broad, they're

388
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,960
almost meaningless.
This, this, this is sort of an

389
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,640
example.
I am not, I am, I am against

390
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,120
using Superfund as the tool to
deal with the P Foss issue.

391
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,840
I mean, I happened to it just
it's, it was meant for a

392
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,880
different era.
The one, the one thing that I

393
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:47,160
noted in the announcement from
Administrator Zeldin is that

394
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,120
they're thinking, you know,
they're thinking about having a

395
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:56,560
special P Foss task force, which
sounds, sounds OK.

396
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,400
I personally think there needs
to be a P Foss statute that just

397
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,440
or that addresses the unique
features of P Foss and in the,

398
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:09,400
you know, using these other
tools that they're not the best

399
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,360
fit Super funds, bad super.
Ricra has his own issues.

400
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,560
Ricra is is.
I mean, if they had to pick one

401
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,360
because they had to pick one,
Recra would be the better

402
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:22,200
option.
Right, right.

403
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,480
I mean.
And that does present a bunch of

404
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,400
issues there too.
But it, it to me would be more

405
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,040
manageable, more than likely.
And, and you wouldn't have, you

406
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:37,560
know, the, the, the clauses in
CERCLA that can really pull in

407
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,640
PRPS that, you know, are not
really the contributors to, to

408
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,600
clean up.
And currently, you know, if

409
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,600
it's, it's in the, the, the
circle, yeah, in the circle of

410
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:51,800
law.
I mean, you know, all

411
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,800
appropriate inquiries for phase
one, phase two type stuff.

412
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,120
I mean, now you have to assess
it.

413
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:59,120
You have to consider it as a
potential wreck.

414
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,400
I think agencies are starting to
think about, well, do we need to

415
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,680
reopen a lot of our previously,
you know, no further action

416
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,000
active, you know, approvals for
sites that didn't address P

417
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,800
Foss.
You know, they did that kind of

418
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,600
process back when vapor
intrusion was a big issue,

419
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,120
right, which isn't too far.
That's not that long ago when

420
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:28,800
that was, you know, an issue.
And so I'm just curious see how

421
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,720
this new administration is going
to handle this because it, it,

422
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,120
it seems that there's obviously
it needs to be addressed and

423
00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:40,000
fixed somehow, some way, right?
Right.

424
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:46,440
Well, I mean, you raised a very
good point because closure is an

425
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,640
important thing, whether it's
closing has its website, closing

426
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,840
on a deal, closing a job,
whatever.

427
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,560
I mean, getting stuff over is
good and in order for the

428
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,760
government to an EPA,
particularly to make progress in

429
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,480
Superfund, they want to show
results.

430
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,880
This is how many sites we
closed.

431
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,880
Now, if you continue to list new
hazardous substances and you

432
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,840
keep revisiting the closed
sites, you'll never get

433
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,400
anywhere.
It's it's just because who knows

434
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,240
what the next P FOS is going to
be.

435
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,240
I mean, we talked, you know,
this issue about there's

436
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,440
Dachshund, there's asbestos,
there's PCBS and now there's P

437
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:32,560
files.
What's the next?

438
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,240
There's probably going to be
another one.

439
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,320
And so you, you know, at some
point in time you sort of have

440
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,400
to say leave well enough alone
unless there's a risk.

441
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,480
And that's always been the rule,
whether it's a brownfield

442
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,800
cleanup, voluntary cleanup, or
whether it's super fun.

443
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,720
If you find something that's a
new risk, the closure doesn't

444
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,600
apply.
And that's you can't argue.

445
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,360
With that, yeah, yeah.
So and I'm sure, you know, as an

446
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,760
attorney, you're you're probably
helping a lot of companies that

447
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,640
may have this type of situation
pop up and they're like, wait a

448
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,200
minute, you know, we got
closure.

449
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,920
Don't but we don't want to open
this thing back up.

450
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,400
This is going to it could cost
us hundreds of thousands of

451
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,520
dollars to do an assessment that
we made.

452
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,440
You find out is is nothing, you
know, you know, and it's just

453
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,800
kind of a could be a lot of
wasted time and money.

454
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,520
But you know, if it, if it was
in RECRA, let's just kind of

455
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,760
talk about the scenario through
the RECRA, you know, angle, so

456
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,920
to speak, because to me, there's
some concerns there too.

457
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:42,440
If they list P Foss as maybe a
characteristic waste, you know,

458
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,800
what concentration would even be
appropriate because I don't feel

459
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,440
like the MCL is the appropriate
concentration if it's going to

460
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,600
actually be tendered a waste.
You know.

461
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,520
So there's a whole nother like,
you know, process that we'd have

462
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,920
to go through or the agency
would have to go through to kind

463
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,680
of make a determination that
they, if you have concentrations

464
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,480
of this as what is 4 parts per
trillion of waste, you know?

465
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,000
Yeah, I.
I seems pretty.

466
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,400
Yeah, the entire world would be.
I mean, it's ridiculous because

467
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:19,760
if you look at the background of
P FOS in the environment and

468
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,680
particularly in waterways, it's
it's around 4 parts per

469
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,800
trillion.
I mean, they're, it's, it's a

470
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,240
friend of mine, I think IA
friend of mine told me who does

471
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,200
a lot of PFOS work that no one's
ever tested anything and not

472
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,520
found PFOS.
And it's, it's, it's so

473
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,440
pervasive.
So, so the point is to your

474
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:46,400
observation is that ricra has a
lot of advantages because it's

475
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,920
point of generation opposed to
after it's already been disposed

476
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,080
of, keeping it out of where it
shouldn't go.

477
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,080
That's always good.
But if they set those

478
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,920
characteristic levels too low,
again, it's going to it's going

479
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,120
to be a disaster because nothing
will get done.

480
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,000
Everything would be a PFAS
hazardous waste.

481
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,720
And so then, then where do you
put it?

482
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:16,800
And and you know, what do you,
you need the capacity and under

483
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,400
the land disposal restrictions,
which is part of RICRA, within

484
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,560
six months after a listing, EPA
has to start listing treatments,

485
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,640
looking for treatment standards,
which sounds like a really good

486
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:33,320
thing, except where's the
capacity to treat the PFAS?

487
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:38,920
So it it is it is a that's why a
unique would be difficult to put

488
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,560
a new subchapter in the RICRA,
the PFAS subchapter.

489
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:47,200
You know, that sort of would
make more sense because, you

490
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,120
know, go ahead, I.
Was going to say if, if if they

491
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,720
did go down that road and and
they made some allowances for

492
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,040
protections that would help, you
know, waste companies who are

493
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,640
processing waste, you know,
because then you could probably

494
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,840
open up landfills to receive
this type of material across the

495
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,920
board and then you'd have more
capacity.

496
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,360
You know, if it's AP Foss waste,
it can go to a non has landfill,

497
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,600
you know, providing it's got
proper, you know, design,

498
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,320
subtitle D design, it's not bad.
I mean, you can, you know,

499
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,480
they've got leachate there too.
As long as it's being processed

500
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:26,880
and managed, you know,
effectively.

501
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,160
I think, you know, that could be
an alternative.

502
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,240
And as long as they've got
protection, that could be an

503
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,280
option, I would think.
But if that's not the the

504
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,600
direction the agency goes and
did they say has to go to a has

505
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:43,200
landfill or you know, then or
incineration or on site

506
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,200
treatment or some up other
treatment or then I guess deep

507
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,920
well injections of another
option.

508
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,080
I think that's a great, you
know, solution as well for

509
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,160
liquids.
But you're right, the capacity

510
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,400
within the industry is not there
for it that much of AAP FOS

511
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:00,840
waste if it actually goes that
direction.

512
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,960
So I think, yeah.
Yeah, it's not it's, it's a,

513
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,880
it's a real problem.
And then when you add on the

514
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,600
household hazardous waste
exclusion and and this is

515
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,840
something that's I think highly
relevant for P Fuss.

516
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:23,200
A lot of the hazardous waste in
Ricra, if not most of them are

517
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:29,200
industrial hazardous waste,
classic example being electric

518
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,480
arc furnace dust from air
pollution control equipment.

519
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,600
It's still mills.
Well, it's, it's, it's dust,

520
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,160
metal particulates that are
being captured by the air

521
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,280
pollution control equipment and
that's highly concentrated

522
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:44,960
metals.
Hazardous waste.

523
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,160
No, no debate about it.
It's got to be stabilized and go

524
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,600
to a hazardous waste site and
you can go on and on and on

525
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,600
through the Ricker listings,
paint pigments and sludges and

526
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,560
all this kind of stuff.
The a major source of PFAS are

527
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:05,240
household products that are
being discarded and, you know,

528
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:11,360
controlling the disposal of
those different challenge than

529
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,679
going to the steel companies and
the chemical companies saying,

530
00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:18,400
by the way, you're going to have
to start manifesting your, the

531
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,960
sludge here, you know, and so
it's and the the household

532
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,880
hazardous waste exclusion, those
go to the to non hazardous waste

533
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,719
sites right now, you know, those
household hazardous waste

534
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:36,560
collection centers, which are
good, but they're not

535
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:42,960
universally used and who knows?
I mean, I don't know about you,

536
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,360
but I don't see a lot of PFAS
disclosures in products.

537
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:50,480
There's there's not enough of it
going on.

538
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:57,120
And I know that there is a more
of there's more focused on SDSS

539
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,840
having, you know, identifying P
Foss and, and so there's going

540
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,320
to be more focus around that for
reporting purposes.

541
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,760
But geez, you know, there's
still a long way to go to make

542
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,160
that really effective and, and,
you know, implemented across the

543
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,080
industry.
And, and so I think that's a big

544
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,200
issue.
You, you do bring up household

545
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,280
hazardous waste.
I mean, sure, we all have it.

546
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,320
We're all going to Home Depot,
buying products, Lowe's,

547
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,160
whatever and, and getting our,
our, you know, chemicals and

548
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,600
paints and whatever.
And or the grocery store, right,

549
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,480
you know, that stuff, you know,
this stuff is everywhere.

550
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,760
And so it is going to have, you
know, from that perspective, I

551
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,960
would maybe consider it a de
minimis effect in the landfills

552
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,440
if it goes to a non house
landfill comfort compared to

553
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,240
like a true industrial discharge
type, you know, scenario.

554
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:54,760
But somehow, some way, I think
the, you know, EPA needs to come

555
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,920
through with some better
guidance on how to approach and

556
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,520
manage this.
And, and the, the biggest

557
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,600
concern obviously is the is the
exposure scenario, right?

558
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,360
I mean, because, you know, your
colleague, Robert Balat, who's

559
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,480
been on this show, by the way,
you know, the Dark waters movie,

560
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:16,080
fantastic, you know, example of,
of a community impacted by PFOS

561
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:23,000
and cancers and help the, you
know, human birth defects and

562
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,000
and other, you know, things have
happened to these people in the

563
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,520
community because they've been
exposed.

564
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,320
And this isn't just kind of like
making, you know, just kind of

565
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,920
making things up.
No, these actually occur, right?

566
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,720
And and I think that's the
problem with a lot of people.

567
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:44,760
They don't realize how the
exposure of P phos effects

568
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,960
people.
They just hear it.

569
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,560
They hear a low number, but they
don't really see like how, you

570
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,400
know, people exposed to this
chemical in higher

571
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:55,720
concentrations are really
affected.

572
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:59,920
And I think the more we can shed
a light on that shines more of a

573
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:03,840
light on the need to have these
the this rule in place and and

574
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,840
be effectively, you know, you
know, mitigating this exposure.

575
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,800
That's kind of some of my
thoughts there.

576
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,680
I think I just, you know,
curious to see what what you

577
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,080
feel are, you know, maybe what
the next step should be for the

578
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,280
EPA in this this approach with,
you know, making a rule

579
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,480
modification of some sort.
Yeah.

580
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,520
Well, you, you put your finger
on.

581
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:30,280
I mean, I talked to Rob about
this because we, when I first

582
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,000
started working in the same
firm, I mean, I had a case

583
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,440
involving de minimis amounts of
PFAS.

584
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:47,320
I mean, I'm talking about just
around the MCL and the cases

585
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:53,800
that he originally brought and I
would defer to his articles.

586
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,360
But if you look at the movie is
a good example, I mean, they

587
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,080
were right by the discharge of
one of the chemical companies.

588
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,240
And and this is where they're,
as far as I can tell, there was

589
00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:09,120
no treatment at all.
And so therefore, they're

590
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,520
basically putting the, the, the
waste materials from production

591
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,560
into the river at the incredibly
high concentration.

592
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,720
And, and you know, we lose, we
lose a sense of perspective when

593
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:23,680
we go to the, the parts per
trillion.

594
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:27,160
I mean, I think in that case
they were clearly in the parts

595
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,920
per million and it was probably
in the percentages of, you know,

596
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:37,720
like a triple F Little known
fact is, is from 3 to 6% P Foss,

597
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:45,000
the firefighting film 3 to 6% is
30 to 60 parts per billion or I

598
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:50,520
mean 3060 thirty to 60 billion
parts per trillion.

599
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:55,880
And so you go from 50 billion
parts per trillion to four parts

600
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,160
per trillion.
That's a big change.

601
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:03,600
So the point being that the
whole idea here is to have

602
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,920
something protective.
I you mentioned exposure

603
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:13,560
pathways, drinking the water is
got to be the most direct.

604
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,320
I mean, I can't think of
anything more direct than that.

605
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:19,960
I mean, example to tie something
together we just talked about,

606
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:27,760
which is allowing EPA should
allow solid waste, non hazardous

607
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,720
waste landfills to take.
P Foss, they should come out in

608
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:34,280
their technical guidance and be
a little bit more forthright,

609
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,960
little more direct about it.
They've sort of waffled a little

610
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,280
bit in their technical guidance
about whether landfills are

611
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,280
good, bad or indifferent.
That thing Pee Foss, they should

612
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,120
come out and they have to
recognize reality.

613
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,160
They need the capacity.
It's better putting it in a

614
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:55,080
modern subtitle de landfill than
washing it down the sink or

615
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,680
whatever.
But then they have to exempt the

616
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:03,400
leachate from soup to front.
Super fund and, and exempt the

617
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,960
wastewater treatment plants from
liability for taking leachate so

618
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,400
that you don't clog up the
system.

619
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:15,840
Because the bottom line is that
if they impose, and this is

620
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,200
where I come down on this, if
they impose the ultimate

621
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,200
treatment burden on the on the
water utilities, that's where

622
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,520
the rubber hits the road.
Now there has to be effluent

623
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,280
guidelines to the wastewater
treatment plants.

624
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,200
You know, I you can't just be
polluted in the river and hoping

625
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:32,800
it's to be treated downriver,
right?

626
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,640
Do that.
But it's from what I've seen of

627
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:47,000
wastewater discharges, it's in
the 50 parts per trillion.

628
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:50,840
It's not like amazing and
they're not doing any treatment.

629
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,120
I mean that that's one of the
arguments.

630
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,640
Well, they're not treating, but
I've actually seen the data

631
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,000
because I was in a case where
this data, we had the data at

632
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,680
the point of discharge and it
and, and you know, few people

633
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:07,080
were getting because for, for
what it's worth, I mean, if

634
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,160
there's such dilution, I mean,
it's not, there's such dilution

635
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,560
occurring in a lot of these
waterways.

636
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:17,400
Not that that's the solution,
but it's part of the Clean Water

637
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,720
Act to when they give you and
you, you probably have done this

638
00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:24,320
when they give you those MPDS
permits, they're looking at the

639
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,560
river flow, the the dilution is
occurring before it gets to the

640
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,720
receptors, right?
Yeah.

641
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:35,880
They're looking at the team DLS
on those and the waste load

642
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:40,280
allocation, you know, potential
for these chemicals.

643
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:46,200
And when I think that's really
where, you know, the, the

644
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,280
process kind of gets hung up is
at the is at the treatment

645
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,680
plants, both drinking water and
the, and the, and the

646
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:57,240
wastewater.
And I think the challenge there

647
00:41:57,240 --> 00:42:02,560
is, do we have the right
technologies to treat adequately

648
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:08,640
to these proper levels?
And then if we do, which I think

649
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,400
there's a lot of good technology
coming out that is actually

650
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,080
showing, you know,
effectiveness.

651
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,480
But it's the cost, right?
It's the cost to the ratepayer.

652
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,640
So part of me is like, well, if,
if you've got an industry that's

653
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,600
set up with, say the
pretreatment discharge program

654
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,280
for youth public wastewater
utility, then they can just

655
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:35,120
charge a surcharge out the wazoo
to an industry that has this

656
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,640
type of impact in their, in
their waste in their discharge

657
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,240
to the facility.
And that cost can be used to

658
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:46,680
upgrade the plant, right,
Theoretically, and along with

659
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,040
some other state funded, you
know, probably loans that they

660
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,960
can get to, to do that.
I think the challenge a lot of

661
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,000
these utilities are facing, and
I'm, I've been working once more

662
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,640
recently, I was working with one
that, you know, they, they're

663
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,360
going to a plant upgrade and
they were adding, you know, a,

664
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,520
a, a pre treatment discharge
program to, to their for their

665
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,760
permit and then and their
community, because they really

666
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,640
hadn't had a lot of industry
there already.

667
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:16,120
But you know, that whole
process, it, it takes time.

668
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,120
Can they get the the plant
upgraded by 2029?

669
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,880
I don't think so.
I mean, that's, that's the big

670
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,080
problem.
And so you know it, it is.

671
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,760
No, we have a problem at hand
because because here here's

672
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,960
here's the reality.
And I know that you've you've

673
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,000
you've done this in your
professional career, but what's

674
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:45,680
happening right now in just one
scenario is, OK, a user, a

675
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:50,080
significant user of a wastewater
treatment plant will generally

676
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,920
need a permit from the
wastewater plant.

677
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,040
So the wastewater plant is
imposing standards upon the

678
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,680
discharger to ensure that the
wastewater plant can meet their

679
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,040
own effluent standards.
OK, well, so, and I don't think

680
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,160
that's a problem because you're
basically talking about two

681
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,480
levels of pretreatment.
You're pretreating it and say

682
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,640
it's a landfill or a chemical
plant, whatever.

683
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,760
You're pretreating your P5IS
containing wastewater to a

684
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,120
degree.
You're not moving it to zero.

685
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,520
You're not moving it to.
Four parts per trillion.

686
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:25,480
Right.
You're, you're, you're doing

687
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,680
some, it's, let me put this way,
you're doing some more

688
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:35,600
efficient, affordable treatment,
but you're reducing it to a

689
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:41,080
level or by a percentage that
now the wastewater plant can

690
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,880
meet its own inflow.
It's only effluent stand.

691
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,160
So you're sort of spreading it
out a little bit and that's the

692
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,040
way it's supposed to work.
So what's going on right now is

693
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,720
because we don't have leachate
pretreatment standards, we don't

694
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:57,320
have effluent standards.
A lot of it's a lot of

695
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,000
wastewater plants are shutting
down P Foss contributors.

696
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,960
So just you can't take it here
because we don't want to either

697
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:10,600
get sued by downstream users,
but we don't want to pollute

698
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,520
the, you know, or maybe the
state's imposing women on them.

699
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:20,480
And I have to say that there are
some issues, but it's it's not

700
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:22,680
terrible.
It's not yet a terrible

701
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:27,120
situation, generally speaking.
You have some reasonable people

702
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:32,240
who are good engineers working
on this and people know that.

703
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:33,880
And I've made this argument
myself.

704
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:39,080
If you shut off like a landfill
from sending leachate to a

705
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,840
wastewater plant, where where do
you want it to go?

706
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,720
And you said earlier deep
injection was a good idea.

707
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:52,080
OK, fine.
Supposed to it, it quadruples

708
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:53,480
the cost.
OK, fine.

709
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:56,840
What's going to happen?
Well, the price the landfill's

710
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,520
charging for garbage is going to
go up and the prices are going

711
00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:02,000
to go.
So it's it's sort of, it's sort

712
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,120
of, it's nothing wrong.
I mean, all I'm saying is that

713
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:09,800
it was me they would do things
at all in a series and let it

714
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:11,920
take effect.
So you're minimizing the

715
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,640
concentration by the time it
gets to the water utility?

716
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,400
Yeah, no, you're, I mean, and
that makes sense.

717
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,960
And, and I think that's really
kind of the, the approach that a

718
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,200
lot of the companies are, you
know, taking, you know, if we

719
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:28,240
pivot a bit back to the waste
companies, you know, a lot of

720
00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:31,800
waste companies aren't wanting
to take P Foss impacted waste in

721
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,480
their their landfills.
They're say, well, we go for has

722
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,640
has disposal because it's a more
secure type thing and they don't

723
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,920
want it the liability.
So that's kind of a

724
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,560
self-imposed, you know,
directive from a company just

725
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,560
for, to, to manage risks.
But if we get into that kind of,

726
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,240
you know, conversation, what
type of legal risk do you see or

727
00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:58,320
do you think companies and
municipalities have facing with,

728
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,040
you know, or that are faced with
this rule, not only maybe the

729
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:03,640
existing rule, but the proposed
rule?

730
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,680
I mean, what what type of risk
of legal challenges do you see

731
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:13,040
that may be forthcoming?
Well, there's all sorts of

732
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:22,320
perspectives perspectives here.
The in the worst case scenario,

733
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:29,720
you have claims by downstream
users, which would be

734
00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:33,680
individuals who claim the
drinking water was contaminated

735
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,640
and therefore they got cancer.
Now believe it or not, there are

736
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:42,640
a couple cases like that and
they're scary cases because PFOS

737
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:49,680
is sort of the feared chemical
of the day and there is some

738
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:54,400
science behind it.
Now I'm not a toxicologist, but

739
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:59,200
it's been connected to some
forms of cancer in different

740
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:04,000
levels, etcetera, etcetera.
But that the plaintiffs lawyers

741
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,040
if they get that person or get
that scenario, they go, they go

742
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,040
up up the chain who contributed
the peat phosphor that would be

743
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,560
the users of the of the river of
the discharged into the river

744
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,000
the wastewater treatment plants
which really are the the

745
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,520
centralized.
Aggregator.

746
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:27,240
Aggregator for all these.
So you're going up the stream.

747
00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:34,480
And so these costs are being
borne way upstream because there

748
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,640
aren't regulations requiring
treatment.

749
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:43,440
We're not we're not convincing
people that the water is safe.

750
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,720
We're not We don't have that
that certainty that, you know,

751
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:51,600
the MCLS is like good Good
Housekeeping seal of approval.

752
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,560
OK, it's fine.
You know, I mean, like the in

753
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,280
the lead in Flint, MI is, is
this an example?

754
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:07,440
So, so there's a real, you know,
tort law should not really over

755
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,160
overcome or get ahead of the
rules, but that's what's

756
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,800
happening right now.
That's a lot of the is being

757
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:20,640
done through the tort system
duty breach, causation and the

758
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,560
folks who innocent folks,
passive receivers.

759
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:28,320
And you know, when you think
about it, the households

760
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,240
throughout the PFOS, well, just
a second here, who sold the

761
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:37,200
product to the households?
And you know, let's face it, you

762
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,640
you go back to the source.
Yeah, you got the chemical

763
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,320
manufacturers, you know.
At the end of the day, so that

764
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,480
that's, that is, that's, that's
what Rob has done.

765
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:53,480
Frankly, the you know, and
that's it makes logical sense

766
00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:00,040
because that molecule can be
traced to the manufacturer.

767
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:05,680
You know, watching Dark Waters
really kind of opened my eyes to

768
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:10,760
the magnitude of the situation,
you know, that we are faced with

769
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,120
right now with P Foss.
I mean, I can remember as a kid,

770
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,640
you know, all the commercials on
Teflon, non stick frying pans,

771
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,520
you know, OK, yeah, right there.
Teflon.

772
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,920
That's that's right.
How about how about, how about

773
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,040
Scotchgard?
You know, let me get my couch,

774
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,600
spray my crotch so I don't get,
you know, dirt on the couch.

775
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,880
And and, you know, the
salesperson will Hey, could we

776
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,160
could Scotchgard that before you
bring it home, You know, it's

777
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,680
like there's another thing.
It's like it's before you

778
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,400
realize it's in so many
products, consumer products that

779
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,160
we use and have used over the
years.

780
00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:49,520
You're like, wow, we've kind of
constantly been exposed to this

781
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,360
at certain levels, not
unknowingly for many, many

782
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,640
years.
And a lot of us are probably, I

783
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,760
mean, I know we all probably
have some level of P Phos in our

784
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,400
bloods right now.
It's just not having an A major

785
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:07,280
effect on our bodies development
or redevelopment or or just

786
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,520
system right now.
However, communities that have

787
00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:15,680
much higher levels of exposure,
you know, those are the ones

788
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:20,640
that are seeing the biggest
impact to this chemical and, and

789
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,680
to these chemicals.
And just as a big, it's a big

790
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,920
concern for the bigger
communities that, that have, you

791
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,640
know, communities are local next
to some of these big

792
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,120
manufacturing sites that have a
lot of discharges.

793
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:39,280
And it's, it's sad to see some
of the, the, the effort.

794
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:43,920
And for all the listeners, if
you haven't seen the movie Dark

795
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,720
Waters, I highly recommend you
watch it.

796
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:51,120
Go and see it today.
And, and, and some of you may

797
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,520
know, but we do have Robert Blot
actually a keynote speaker for

798
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:59,280
us at the EHS Hazmat Summit in
September of this year in

799
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,360
Louisville.
And he's, we, we can't wait to

800
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,280
have him there.
And I'm sure they this proposed

801
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,640
rule conversation is also going
to be a little bit of the

802
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,040
discussion in the, the keynote
that we're kind of talking about

803
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,880
today, because it's got an
implication in.

804
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,720
I'm kind of curious what would
happen if some of this hap this

805
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,160
rule gets they'll just Fast
forward, let's say some of it

806
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:27,160
does happen.
Does does that like unwind some

807
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,280
of the previous court decisions
as well?

808
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:39,160
Well, there's a decision in
Alabama that it was against.

809
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:45,480
It's a water utility suing, I
think it was suing DuPont and it

810
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,920
was filed before the MCLS became
effective.

811
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,920
And so the argument was by
DuPont that there's not an

812
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:58,480
enforceable standard.
So, so, and at the time it was

813
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:01,680
the health advisory, OK, Well,
the Health advisors are not,

814
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,440
they were not enforceable, but
they were advisory.

815
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,800
So that was the argument that Du
Pont made.

816
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,080
Now the court, this is on a
motion to dismiss, which is just

817
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:14,360
a complaint without evidence.
The court said that the

818
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:19,120
plaintiff, the water utility,
had sufficiently alleged injury

819
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:25,440
to itself and to the public.
Because the regulatory standard

820
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,000
is not the absolute health
standard you could be.

821
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,080
In other words, you can get sick
and be under if you can get, if

822
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,840
you get sick, if it causes
injury, even if you're below the

823
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:42,040
standard, whether it's lead,
PFAS, arsenic or vinyl chloride,

824
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,040
whatever, you have a cause of
action in a tort law.

825
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:50,320
So now, so that's a very
interest.

826
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,400
And I've used that decision to
sort of say, you know, it's not

827
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,200
like the the end of the game if
there's not a regulatory

828
00:53:58,200 --> 00:53:59,480
standard.
On the other hand, the

829
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:06,720
regulatory standard is clear.
Black and white know exactly,

830
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,000
exactly what you're going to do
now.

831
00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:18,080
So if the, the way the this pre
proposed announcement, whatever

832
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:25,040
it is, all they're doing is
extending the, the compliance

833
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,040
deadline.
And in the blog that we did,

834
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:33,080
apparently the water, most water
utilities couldn't meet the 2029

835
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,280
deadline either.
I mean that that that is fast

836
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:42,360
approaching the one the one
water utility case or facility I

837
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,960
mentioned earlier in Alabama
about $80 million.

838
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,560
They've been studying this.
They have the money and they're

839
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,920
still going through pilot and
it's been 2-3 years.

840
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,200
And so it's not like and you've,
you've done this yourself.

841
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,440
I mean, this is not an easy
thing to do.

842
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:05,880
It's not like building a house
shakedown and trial runs and

843
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,080
you.
Know, I, I just think that, you

844
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,160
know, I'm glad they've at least,
you know, proposed to keep the

845
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:18,440
two long chain P Foss chemicals.
But but if you eliminate the

846
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,000
other two, I mean, they say
they're going to further study

847
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,640
it, maybe change the level.
I don't know, maybe they don't

848
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,760
come back with anything and they
just eliminate I don't know.

849
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:30,680
But you know, those chemicals
have been known to also have

850
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,920
health effects.
And if you are only testing for

851
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:38,360
those 2P Foss and you don't
really effectively look at the

852
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:42,040
other ones that are having, you
know, you're still having an

853
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,600
exposed community and and I
there's just seems to be some

854
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:51,320
ambiguity and some just not, not
real clear thinking on that

855
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,840
approach.
Well, if they come out with this

856
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:56,760
proposal, this is what's going
to happen.

857
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,440
I think they are going to come
out with the proposal in the

858
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:01,760
fall.
That's what they said, That's

859
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:02,920
what EPA said they're going to
do.

860
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,920
They're going to move it to the
compliance headline for the 2P

861
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:11,680
Fosses to 2031.
They eliminate these other 4

862
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,080
then there's going to be
comments from all over the

863
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,040
place.
Don't do it, OK.

864
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:22,000
And so we're going to see what
happens.

865
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,640
I mean, the, the real
interesting part rulemaking, I

866
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:30,840
think is how the agency responds
to comments in the final rule

867
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:36,680
because they this is not, well,
it's partially political, but as

868
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:45,160
this is where science should
govern, it's not 100%, but if

869
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,800
the data shows XY and Z, well,
you need to regulate this and

870
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,040
it'd be very interesting.
And I'm sure there will be an

871
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:56,400
appeal of the rule that EPA
ignored the science when they

872
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:02,920
eliminated the MCL.
So, but you're right in in, in

873
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:07,280
recognizing that this is sending
a message, right?

874
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:11,080
It's sending a message when you
eliminate a standard that the

875
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:14,000
prior administration said was
necessary to protect human

876
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,720
healthy environment, then you
take it away.

877
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,480
You're sending a message either
A they don't care about healthy

878
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:25,880
environment B the prior science
was wrong, which is fine.

879
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:29,880
Maybe could be they'll.
They'll think so, but yeah.

880
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,720
But maybe it was wrong.
But you're showing some

881
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:38,040
indecisiveness on something that
you need confidence in, right?

882
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,000
You know so.
Do you think there's a lot more,

883
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,400
I guess, epidemiology studies or
things like that that are

884
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:51,640
forthcoming that have a little
more information to help the

885
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:54,240
science behind this?
It's, you know, coming out in

886
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,640
the next, say, year or so.
Yeah.

887
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:01,760
I, I it's heavily, it's it's
heavily, it's being heavily

888
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:07,960
researched.
I have work with expert

889
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:16,680
toxicologist on this and I'm not
up completely up to speed on the

890
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,240
state of epidemiology and P
phos.

891
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:25,040
A fascinating topic, but one
thing I will say that sort of

892
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,760
goes the other direction, but
it's important to know is that

893
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:33,520
in the multi district litigation
in South Carolina where there's

894
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:39,840
thousands of personal injury
cases collected and the judge

895
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,040
there, he just got done with the
water utility settlements.

896
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:47,240
He's moving on to a bellwether,
which is a sample case,

897
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,040
representative case in personal
injury.

898
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,440
And he instructed all the
plaintiffs lawyers who

899
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:56,480
represented the alleged injured
people to come forward with

900
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:02,240
expert testimony, expert
evidence that the that their

901
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,160
client's injury was caused by
PFOS, which makes sense.

902
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,520
And that wiped out over 50% of
the claims.

903
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,000
Just him asking for the
connection.

904
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,880
So there's.
So the moral of the story is,

905
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:22,000
yes, there is a connection, but
it's, but it's not, it doesn't

906
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,760
cause all injuries at all
concentration levels.

907
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,880
And it's like in dark waters,
you get higher concentrations.

908
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,600
The personal injury is something
I think is going to be with us

909
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,280
for a long time because as those
studies come out, we'll learn

910
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:43,080
more concentrations and what
which which ones.

911
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,640
But man, the science is lagging
behind, I have to say, I think.

912
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:52,680
Yeah, it seems like there's been
a lot of push or to suppress

913
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:57,400
this testing protocols and
processes that you know, and,

914
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,160
and, and you know, the IT seems
like based, you know, I mean,

915
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:01,400
just look at the Dark Waters
movie.

916
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,720
The chemical industry was really
trying to block a lot of that

917
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,880
activity.
And so because they don't want

918
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,240
the information to come out
right.

919
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,800
And and I think that is a lot of
the challenge that a lot of the.

920
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:15,920
Plaintiffs attorneys are facing
and, and because it costs a lot

921
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:17,720
of money to do it, obviously,
right.

922
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:24,040
So interesting, interesting
challenges and, and I would

923
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,840
imagine being attorney in the
environmental arena right now

924
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:32,400
is, is quite interesting for
you, you know, with the types of

925
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,440
cases that you may be facing
and, and supporting it, you

926
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:42,560
know, various plaintiffs.
Yeah, I mean, it's been, you

927
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,240
know, people ask you, well, you
picked a good area to major, you

928
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,120
know that to focus on.
Well, it's been a good, I hate

929
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,440
to say this, but it's been a
good area for 40 years.

930
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:54,440
I mean, there's always been
something and and the peat Foss

931
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:58,880
is just a fascinating topic for
a lot of the reasons that that

932
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:00,800
have come up during this this
interview.

933
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:07,680
I mean, it crosses over from
politics to science to to human

934
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:13,480
health to economics to who who
should pay, who should pay the

935
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:17,840
cost is, you know, the
reasonable reach of some of

936
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:22,840
these rules.
And, you know, I, I like going,

937
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:25,120
I mean, I like going with this.
I mean, the one thing about

938
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,800
environmental practice, science
is supposed to control the

939
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,440
dialogue.
And, you know, unfortunately,

940
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,200
the scientists don't always
agree.

941
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,560
And that's why we have competing
experts.

942
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,320
But the jury, the jury or the
judge says, you know, I like

943
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,280
your, I thought you were closer
to decide to do nothing than the

944
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,280
other guy.
So you have a little governor on

945
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,520
there that it's not just, you
know, who could shout the

946
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:53,440
loudest or bang the table.
The science should control.

947
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,520
And I, I think that's where I'm
at with the PFOS.

948
01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:01,120
I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm at let the
science control with the dark

949
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,160
water.
I have to say that from a lawyer

950
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:08,560
standpoint, there was some of
the greatest smoking guns ever.

951
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:12,200
That was was so was real.
I mean, the fact that they knew

952
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:13,760
that was.
Oh.

953
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,360
Yeah, sure, that's a fan the.
Cover up the cover up.

954
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:18,480
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.

955
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:19,680
And then, yeah.
Yeah.

956
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:23,040
Phil, Phil, did you read, Did
you read Robert's book Exposure?

957
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,840
No, no, no.
It adds a whole nother layer of,

958
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,640
you know, the the the story to I
mean, it's just amazing so.

959
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:36,360
Yeah, I, you know, maybe listen
to at some point, but you know,

960
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:41,360
but I will also say about that
movie for it's, it's got one of

961
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,240
the most realistic deposition
scenes in it.

962
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:48,640
I mean, that's I, I thought it
was one of the best lawyer media

963
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:53,160
movies that I've seen because
you know, beyond Perry Mason,

964
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:57,920
which of course we're we're very
good, but but in entertainment

965
01:02:57,920 --> 01:02:59,640
way, but it was it was pretty
realistic.

966
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:02,880
So recommended as well.
Absolutely.

967
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,720
Well, Phil, hey, I really
appreciate you coming on the

968
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:08,840
show today sharing your insights
and, and what your thoughts are

969
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:13,240
on this proposed rule and the
affected, you know, I guess

970
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:18,160
industries and municipalities
and and the rule itself.

971
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:20,760
Thank you for coming on the show
sharing your wisdom.

972
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:25,360
I really appreciate your time.
We'll make sure we get your

973
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,640
contact information out there
for people to reach out to if if

974
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:31,760
they've got questions that they
may need an attorney to assist.

975
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:33,920
So really appreciate your time
today.

976
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:36,160
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.
Thanks a lot, Sean.

977
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:37,840
I've enjoyed it.
Thanks for listening and

978
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,160
watching the show.
If you enjoyed the show then

979
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:42,840
please share it with your
friends and Co workers on social

980
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,040
media and tell somebody in
person.

981
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:47,360
Thanks for being with us, ET
Nation.