Aug. 18, 2021

"Forever Chemicals" Environmental, Economic, and Social Equity Concerns with PFAS with Authors LeeAnn Racz and David Kempisty.

Forever Chemicals known as PFAS, are a class of man-made per-and polyfluroalkyl substances that persist in the environment and don’t break down. PFAS chemicals have been around for over 70 years and have been unregulated by the EPA for decades. Authors LeeAnn Racz and David Kempisty document in this book, "Forever Chemicals" Environmental, Economic, and Social Equity Concerns with PFAS in the Environment, the challenges with analytical testing, risk assessments, regulatory implications, consumer products containing PFAS, waste disposal, remediation concerns, and more. Check out this informative episode.

Thanks to our Sponsors: Cascade Environmental, Terra Nova Solutions, and E-Tank and E-Pump.

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Also, for example, just last
month, the House of

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Representatives passed a few
fast action act, which would

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require the EPA to add fifo and
P Foss to the list of hazardous

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substances and also assess other
PPS to determine why they should

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be designated as hazardous
substances and under cercla.

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That's nice.
This nation has, its hazardous

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substance would trigger certain
actions for remediation, clean

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up for a sites that are
attacking my it's coming then

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Coming out.
Yeah.

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Oh, so that proposed legislation
has now moved to the Senate, so

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we'll and then we'll see where
that goes.

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But again, that is that again,
that 2020 ndaa that prompted the

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EPA to require the EPA to add
several P fast to the Toxic

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release inventory.
Now, it's kind of a high number

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now.
So, if you notice is popping up

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a trigger very easily, but also
then published guidance on how

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to store and dispose of P fast,
this is States was helping us

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Implement health risk.
So there's lots of movement in

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this area.
Sure.

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Sure.
Welcome to the environmental

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transformation podcast where we
talk with industry leaders,

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climate Champions and
sustainability professionals,

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their businesses.

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Today, each leader solving
complex challenges and provide

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Solutions within the respective
areas of expertise.

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Here's our host, Sean Grady.
Hello listeners.

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Welcome to the environmental
transformation podcast.

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I'm your host Sean Grady and I'm
bringing you interviews with

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leaders in the industry.
Providing you information about

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industry Trends in climate
change, Future Energy circular

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economy, regulatory topics and
providers that are transforming

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the industry.
And today's guests are Leann

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raised and David Kemp St,
authors of the new book forever.

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Chemicals, the Economic and
social Equity concerns with pfos

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in the environment.
How are you guys doing today?

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Great, thanks for having us.
Well, I'm very glad you.

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Yeah.
Thanks the glad you guys catch.

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Come on to the show today.
You know, I've read the book.

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Most of the book, really great
information here about the, the

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pfos.
Let's talk about the book.

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What did you guys release the
book?

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It came out on the street last
month.

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Late July with Taylor Aransas.
Yeah.

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Okay, okay.
And so let's talk a little bit

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about the the topics that are
covered in the book.

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Give us a little, the listeners
idea.

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We'll all the various chapters
and you know components of the

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book that you're of the material
you're covering.

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I think that one man.
Sure.

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And so I'm really we look at P
fast.

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It's a fascinating topic and
it's a dynamic topic.

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And so we try to present in the
book, all the different

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challenges, and how they're
intertwined and progressing at

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different rates, but affecting
one another.

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And so we look at from a
regulatory perspective, how

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things are evolving at the state
level, some of the things that

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are going on in Europe, but
that's being affected by how low

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Limits of detection can be
founder or what can be found or

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what are the approved method of
there?

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Were some of the analytical
concerns.

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And so that's the second area
that we talked to is the

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analytical challenges that are
associated with these, but the

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regulations and the policy are
also afforded, you know, need

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input from the toxicology and
how that toxicology is effects

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affecting things.
And so what are the adverse

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health effects of these?
Chemicals are, what are the

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concentrations?
Where we'll find some of these

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points of departure to Health
outcomes that we would like to

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avoid.
So that's changing.

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And then finally, how do we
clean things up or how to

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remediate things and there are a
variety of different

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Technologies to remediate or,
you know, do they destroy them,

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or do they just transfer them to
another medium?

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And then we've got to deal with
it in a landfill or incinerated.

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So all four of those areas
really are moving along and

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progressing but they're all
affected by one another.

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And we have chapters kind of
talking to each of those points.

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Man, this is like an onion.
We A lot of layers to uncover

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here.
Don't worry.

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I mean, there's a lot of detail
in here.

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And so before we jump in, you
know, let's give the listeners a

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little bit of background on you
too.

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And how did you guys become, you
know, quote unquote some experts

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in the field so to speak with
pfos chemicals and give it.

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Give it a listen a little bit
background about each of you.

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So, both David I have had
careers in the Air Force.

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We were we, that's where we met.
That's we work together.

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As Air Force officers and bile
environmental Engineers is what

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their career field was called
where we were basically

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environmental health
professionals by my lack of

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facial Health.
We are environmental Engineers.

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We also industrial hygienist and
anything to do with human

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health, exposure to
occupational, environmental

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stressors, chemical biological,
radiological, physical.

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That's what we.
That's where our expertise life

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and then If you can talk about
your, your graduate work, that's

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kind of what you got into that
into the pee fast Niche.

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But you know, this is a topic
that's that is pervasive and

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it's something that we're all
dealing with this time.

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So so we all have a vested
interest in this topic.

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Yeah, Shawn it was a pretty
fortuitous happening for me and

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that I was getting my PhD at
University of Colorado Boulder

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and I was studying carcinogenic
vocs and a different absorbance

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and running this Allure
experimental apparatus in the

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lab and Colorado School of Mines
was working on these chemicals

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pee fast chemicals and they were
having issues with their RSS.

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CT and they asked me for some
insight and we went back and

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forth and then at the end of the
conversation they said you know

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Dave you've got that truck.
Why don't you just go ahead and

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go clap the water and we'll just
go ahead and do that research

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here and I think and I don't
even know how to pronounce these

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chemicals.
What I don't want to do any more

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work.
I'm trying to get out the door

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here and Funny part, is that
beef asses, you know where I

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make bread and butter today and
nobody looks at my dissertation

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for carcinogenic vocs.
It's more of the work that I was

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cajoled into doing begrudgingly
but hindsight's 20/20.

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Well, there are probably some
learnings you can bring over

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from the vo C carcinogenic side
of things with pfos cuz there's

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definitely some health risks
there right with the curvature.

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Yeah.
And then with the adsorption and

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activated carbon and it's one of
the The core remediation

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technology.
Certainly applicable to both of

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those contaminant classes.
Absolutely absolutely.

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Well, I mean I really love how
the book just kind of broke

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down.
You know, bite-sized digestible,

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you know, sections so you could
really like, okay.

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Let me, let me read this one
about, you know, remediation or

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let me read this one about
analytical and and you really

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you broke it down really well.
So for the listeners, this book

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is hugely informative.
It's very educational and it's

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Timely because it is bringing up
these topics that are current

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status of the, of the, the State
of the Union.

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So to speak of pfos situation.
At least that's the way I

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interpret it.
Is that kind of what you

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intended it to be guys.
Yeah, actually, this was our

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second book on pee fast.
We had one when it came out a

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couple years ago, and and
they've give me a call me one

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day.
So, you know, we have more to

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say there's more to work to be
more things to be said about

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this because research was just
developing and coming out, As

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such a rapid pace and we're
learning more and more that we

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need to get this word out.
So, so that's kind of the

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Genesis of this particular
topic.

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And I do want to say also I do I
would be extremely remiss.

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If I didn't acknowledge all the
wonderful work from are

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contributing authors, we have
some world-class experts, no

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kidding!
That, that contributed the

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chapters, many of the chapters,
to this book and and they really

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made this River Valuable
project.

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Well, that's good.
I mean yeah.

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You know how it is.
I mean it's a team effort on

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just about any good project you
work on and hardly anybody can

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just do everything by
themselves.

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So it's great that you're able
to, you know, give some

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shoutouts to the contributors.
So, you know, there's a lot of,

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you know, top talk about pfos
and a lot of mystery about it

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and a lot of wondering what's
going on.

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But you know, let's talk about,
you know, what are the various

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Pathways of exposure for pfos.
I mean Why is it such a problem?

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And you know, what's the
challenge with all these

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exposure pathways?
Yeah, I'll start in the maybe

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David can chime in too.
Now, these compounds are used in

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so many products, that mean,
you're, they're just all over

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all over the place and textiles
and all kinds of Coatings and

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firefighting films, of course,
but because they don't degrade

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in the environment.
They're going to find their way

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to all kinds of different
pathways.

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Historical pee fast,
manufacturing, waste and

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product.
Use have been direct Pathways,

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but also, there are many
indirect Pathways.

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When they end up in landfills,
they can migrate delete shade

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and landfill air emissions.
They can also be sent to

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wastewater treatment plants and
of the water cycle.

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And then, of course, enter
surface water and groundwater.

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And we're also learning more
about P.

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Facet indoor dust in the
atmosphere so multiple different

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Pathways, okay?
Right.

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And predominantly.
They, they show that the

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greatest contribution and
Simone.

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Balan wrote an excellent chapter
in our book and kind of taught

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lays this out very nicely in one
of the chapters.

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But she talks about Holly the
greatest contribution seems to

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be from food and that's been
cited, repeatedly with various

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studies.
But if you're in a contaminated

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Community, if you have a release
of these, or you're next to an

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aviation Community or wherever
there is, Contamination of

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these, not widespread
contamination, but, like a point

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source.
Then it's the greatest

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contribution.
Like 75% of your intake, is from

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a drinking water source.
So it really depends and if you

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know, and then there's various
studies that show children have

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greater exposure from, you know,
because they're on con carpets

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that are treated with these
chemicals that they can have a

206
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greater exposure to that best
and these consumer products.

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00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,100
And so, There's a variety of
different ways that we can be

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00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:29,100
affected by these but you know,
their W perfect of around the

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00:11:29,108 --> 00:11:32,800
planet.
Well I mean So currently there's

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00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,700
no clear federal policy coming
right away.

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I mean, the states are the
states seem to be, you know,

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left to develop their own
criteria, their own standards,

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00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:47,800
you know, is this a good idea?
I mean, I know that the federal

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00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,900
government is working towards,
you know, a policy of some sort

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00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:53,400
of a standard, but it's still a
little years in the making in a

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sense.
So You know, is it a good idea

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that the states are moving
forward with their own?

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You know, standards before the
federal government comes out

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with one?
What's your take on that?

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Yeah.
Go ahead Dave.

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Yeah, it's very complicated but
with regards to the provisional

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Health advisory and now the
Lifetime Health advisory put

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00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:22,100
forth by the EPA there, that's
in fact like a like a de facto

224
00:12:22,100 --> 00:12:25,300
regulation but there is no Safe.
Drinking Water Act regulation

225
00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:28,400
for these or other air emission
regulations out there currently

226
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,900
from a federal perspective.
So as you said Shawn, the states

227
00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:33,600
are moving forward.
Is that a good idea?

228
00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:36,600
Not entirely.
Because now you've got Have

229
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:42,000
individual toxicology, tests and
development of these standards

230
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,200
and then defense of these
standards and then you're left

231
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,000
with the scenarios.
Why you're, you know, monitoring

232
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,700
six of these, this Suite of
chemicals in one state and eight

233
00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:54,600
and R2 and another.
And, and so you'd have a

234
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,200
patchwork of regulations.
And so it makes it much more

235
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,300
challenging, whereas if you had
one Federal standard, then you

236
00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:03,800
could tighten the regulations if
you would like, the states are

237
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,100
still obviously allowed to
Maintain their Primacy and go

238
00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:13,100
that route, but you would, at
least have one consistent study

239
00:13:13,100 --> 00:13:16,500
to base things on a bass line if
you will to move forward.

240
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,700
Yeah, that that seems to be what
I thought, too.

241
00:13:20,900 --> 00:13:22,900
Lee Anne, you want to contribute
more than that?

242
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,400
Well, Dave's totally right.
Yeah, you talk about this

243
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,900
Patchwork of regulations and
that's exactly what it is

244
00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:32,200
because you know, as you
mentioned in the absence of any

245
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,900
kind of Federal Regulation that
states are left to their own

246
00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:38,200
devices and that's 92.
Very, there's a whole Spectrum,

247
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,800
some rely on the 70 parts.
Per trillion, Health advisory

248
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,700
limit for people, and be false
and others.

249
00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:45,500
Who said, you know, we think 16
part per trillion is safe and

250
00:13:45,508 --> 00:13:47,800
other one says, 40 parts per
trillion is safe, so it's very

251
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,300
confusing for the consumer but
also for our for professionals

252
00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:52,600
as well.
But you're right.

253
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,800
The tide is starting to turn.
There's been some regulations

254
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,900
that have come out that have
been enforcing the EPA the

255
00:13:58,900 --> 00:14:02,600
federal level to make some
decisions that is going to take

256
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,800
some time.
Yeah right.

257
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,900
And in some states are actually
A just regulating to specific

258
00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:10,800
compounds to not just, you know,
a class, right?

259
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,300
So that's a problem or a
challenge.

260
00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:15,500
Should I say I'm gonna be a
problem, but a challenge, right?

261
00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:17,800
Yeah.
I mean, I think that the class

262
00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:21,100
regulation is a worth
investigating, but you're having

263
00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:23,300
again, that's just more of the
patchwork, right?

264
00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:26,200
So not just a numbers, not just
different, individual pee fast,

265
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:27,900
but now you got families of P
fast.

266
00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:31,200
And then, on top of that, you've
got different notification

267
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,000
levels, are you have to, you
know, three strikes and you're

268
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,100
out and now you have to make
Suspension, the newspaper but a

269
00:14:37,108 --> 00:14:41,500
different state has a different
penalty or consequence or how

270
00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:43,600
much do you sample?
How often do you sample, all

271
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,600
these sorts of things are
different for each state and so,

272
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,800
it makes it very challenging.
Yeah.

273
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,000
I mean, I look at this and I go,
wow, you know, there's a lot of

274
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,300
states that are kind of leading
the charge with, you know,

275
00:14:56,300 --> 00:14:59,500
California New Jersey, Michigan.
A few of these others that are

276
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:02,600
really kind of, you know,
they're definitely in the, in

277
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,800
the lead, with regulating or at
least putting some standards.

278
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,600
Out there for industry, you
know, I got a magic if you're if

279
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,700
you're in the industry and you
know, maybe you're one of the

280
00:15:11,708 --> 00:15:14,000
contributors unfortunately or
you're in the federal

281
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,000
government, you know, keeping up
with the individual state

282
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,400
requirements and having
professionals help you.

283
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,700
I mean, that's got to be just,
you know, a very difficult

284
00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:27,900
proposition.
Well, the Department of Defense

285
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:32,000
has one good candidate that that
you can cite because they have

286
00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:35,300
installations across the
continental United States or

287
00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:38,200
across the world.
But they've got to understand

288
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,200
what this past work regulation
is or do they just go by default

289
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,400
to the the EPA number which is a
provisional Health advisory?

290
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,400
And now that's a brokered
agreement because it's not a

291
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,400
true, not a true regulation in
the Lifetime Health advisory

292
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,700
excuse me.
But yeah, makes it difficult for

293
00:15:55,700 --> 00:15:57,700
for Planning programming and
budgeting.

294
00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:01,500
If you're having these new
standards come online, you know,

295
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,100
the military wants to have some
sort of prescriptive number that

296
00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:09,100
they can follow and they can
understand and put an estimate

297
00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:12,400
to how much this will cost them
and then be able to act

298
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,900
accordingly.
But when you have this this

299
00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:17,900
mishmash and it's much more
difficult.

300
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,100
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You know, when I look at this

316
00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:25,200
and I'm thinking, wow, okay,
pfos is like the new, you know,

317
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,900
the new Vapor intrusion pathway
assessment, right?

318
00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:31,300
Like if you're in the
remediation business and I've

319
00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:34,800
been involved in the remediation
business for many years when,

320
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,300
you know, the vapor intrusion
came out, I was like, oh gosh,

321
00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:40,600
we got a.
We got to go back and test and

322
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,100
reassess all our sites that we
had, you know, previously closed

323
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:46,300
because Vapor, you know is a
pathway.

324
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:48,000
We didn't rude.
Assess, you know, from a

325
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,300
toxicological or health risk
assessment process.

326
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,100
But now, I'm looking at this
going, pfos is going to be the

327
00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:57,900
whole new wild wild west of this
because, you know, it's not been

328
00:17:57,900 --> 00:17:59,600
something anybody's been looking
at.

329
00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:01,800
You know, what do you guys take
on this?

330
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,900
I mean like, okay, so for
instance, is this going to, you

331
00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:12,700
know, effects like say the atsm,
ASTM appropriate inquiries Rex.

332
00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:15,700
So we're going to start adding
this to you know, our Phase 1

333
00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:21,000
reviews to SS properties because
pfos is, you know, going to be a

334
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:24,500
huge remediation Target.
You see that going that

335
00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:29,100
direction?
It's certainly possible.

336
00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:31,400
I mean, everyone's kind of
jumping on the bandwagon with

337
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,100
regulations right now, the 2020,
National Defense, authorization

338
00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:40,900
act ndaa, had required the at
the federal level, a lot of

339
00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:43,700
things to happen and that's
moving in that direction.

340
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:47,600
Also, for example, just last
month the house Representatives

341
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,300
passed a few fast action act,
which would require the EPA to

342
00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:55,900
add fifo, and pfos to the list
of hazardous substances and also

343
00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:58,600
assess other PPS to determine
why they should be designated as

344
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,400
hazardous substances and under
cercla.

345
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,000
Designating, this nation has its
hazardous substance would

346
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,400
trigger certain actions for
remediation and clean up for our

347
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:09,500
sites that.
Are you talking about?

348
00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:13,700
It's coming, then it's coming.
Yeah, so that proposed

349
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:15,400
legislation has now moved to the
Senate.

350
00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:18,500
So, we'll and then we'll see
where that goes.

351
00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:22,700
But again, that is that again,
that 2020 ndaa that prompted the

352
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:26,600
EPA to require the EPA to add
several P fast to the Toxic

353
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,300
release inventory.
Now, it's kind of a high number

354
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:31,200
now.
So, the notice is up enough, a

355
00:19:31,208 --> 00:19:34,600
trigger very easily, but also
then published guidance on how

356
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,200
to store and dispose of pee
fast, this is states without

357
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,900
testing human health risk.
So there's lots of movement of

358
00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:41,900
this area, for sure.
Yeah.

359
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,300
David you have any thoughts on
that?

360
00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:48,100
It's just that it's Continuing
to bring what we're all talking

361
00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:49,900
about here more attention to the
issue.

362
00:19:49,900 --> 00:19:52,500
So it's not just safe drinking
water but now you're bringing it

363
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:54,700
into a hazardous substance.
Now you're tracking it with

364
00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:57,900
Toxic release inventory.
He's so you're just again

365
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:04,200
expressing, the, the issue to
the public and promulgating

366
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,300
further action, but but you're
also having a way of funding

367
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,300
this if you get a hazardous
substance that designation.

368
00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:15,700
So now you're open to cercla and
super fund funding mechanisms.

369
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,500
For some of these sites that are
affected so you know, good and

370
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:21,900
bad but just bringing more
attention to the issue.

371
00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:30,100
Yeah, I think there's gonna be a
ton of, you know, I guess legal

372
00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:34,500
fights and civil cases are
lawsuits over this over the next

373
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:38,300
few years because the magnitude
of investigation that will take

374
00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:42,100
place to assess pfos and kids,
you know, at properties is going

375
00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:44,400
to be huge.
And I think the big challenge

376
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,100
that the EPA is going to have is
Is that they really don't have

377
00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:50,400
any any that they, they don't
have enough approved.

378
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,600
EPA analytical methods to really
test for these, these chemicals.

379
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,400
And we don't even have enough to
really cover the gamut of the

380
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,800
full spectrum of pfos to
chemicals, right?

381
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,600
Absolutely yeah, yeah, that's
true.

382
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:06,900
In an earlier podcast, I know
you went you interview, Terry

383
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:09,900
McKnight, who is the best
practice leader at your orphans

384
00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:13,400
and she contributed a great
chapter on analytical methods in

385
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,700
this book and yet, I think every
Colin that that interview and

386
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:22,900
interesting, the book she talks
about how the development of

387
00:21:22,908 --> 00:21:27,100
these analytical methods and
until just as recently as 2018,

388
00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:29,100
there was really only one
analytic methods of drinking

389
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:32,700
water and then we had another
method that updated it.

390
00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:34,800
And then we have that at
targeted more compounds.

391
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,200
Now we have some, a couple of
methods for Long training, short

392
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,600
chain.
And then we have these,

393
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:45,100
homegrown sort of versions is
user-defined methods, which are

394
00:21:45,100 --> 00:21:47,700
not.
Italy validated at a third-party

395
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:51,600
standard for other matrices but
that's, you know, little other

396
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,500
level of complexity with
measuring from the soil and

397
00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:57,700
Wastewater sludge and other snow
solids.

398
00:21:58,300 --> 00:22:01,600
Yeah, are I mean now there's
there's a lot there.

399
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,600
Right?
Right, right.

400
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,400
The one point I would add to
that though.

401
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,900
Is that there are defensible
methodologies for understanding

402
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:12,500
these chemicals from an
analytical perspective, but

403
00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:15,400
there are not the EPA approved
methodologies and so that makes

404
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,300
it challenging.
Challenging.

405
00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:19,700
But so we do have the technology
to get there.

406
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:23,800
We just it's driving cost, then
you have to investigate it with

407
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,600
each and every lab it's not
inter-laboratory verified and

408
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,700
certified the quality control
and quality assurance.

409
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:33,500
Measures haven't been you know
completely approved or agreed

410
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:36,400
upon.
So we do have methodologies that

411
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,000
are defensible.
It's just not easy and you have

412
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,700
to kind of do more work which
cost takes more time cost more

413
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:44,600
money.
Yeah, yeah.

414
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,000
I mean the sampling Cost from
Inland a little perspective are

415
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,200
going to go up, right?
I mean for everybody you know

416
00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:58,700
the ability to detect down to
parts per trillion and and and

417
00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:01,400
tear and mentioned Chic, they
they believe they can get down

418
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,400
to parts per quod trillion.
They're seeing particles that

419
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:06,700
low.
I'm like, are you kidding me?

420
00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:11,600
I mean so, okay, so the
questions like do we have enough

421
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,600
Labs that it can actually even
meet these standards available.

422
00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:20,000
Political detection at a
reliable rate with, you know, a

423
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,900
proper method detection limits
and and and you know, qaqc and

424
00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:28,700
all the verification that needs
to be done to run the samples.

425
00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:32,900
I mean, I'm concerned that we
don't have enough laps in the

426
00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:36,400
country to do this appeal.
Support the industry with this

427
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,400
type of sampling requirement.
I mean, what do you guys think?

428
00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:46,400
Go ahead.
Dave that's one of the arguments

429
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,300
for monitoring or regulating
these chemicals as a class or as

430
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:55,500
a grouping or, you know, some
sort of toxic equivalency

431
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,800
something along those lines
where you can have those

432
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,300
methodologies.
Like the total oxidizable

433
00:24:00,300 --> 00:24:03,900
precursor methodology, where
you're changing these precursors

434
00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:07,000
into stable and states and
trying to get, like a total P,

435
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,900
fasts kind of understanding,
but, you know, there's

436
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,200
Weaknesses to that argument as
well because now you're just

437
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,300
kind of lumping everything
together, but that does avoid

438
00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:19,800
the issue of what you just
brought up Shawn as well as not

439
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,600
having toxicology for, you know,
these hundreds and thousands of

440
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,200
chemicals.
You know, we've really just got

441
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,700
adequate talks on it on a
handful of them, but if you

442
00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:33,000
regulate them as a group and we
try to understand them, then we

443
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,400
can probably try to get our arms
around them sooner rather than

444
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:42,200
later and waiting for talks on
hundreds of these Right, right.

445
00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:47,700
You know, the the since the
analytical detection limits are

446
00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:52,500
so low, you know, there's a lot
of potential cross-contamination

447
00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:55,200
since this stuff is everywhere,
you know, it's you pick.

448
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,900
What is the environment?
It seems like, you know what

449
00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:02,500
types of advice or do you guys
have for people that would be in

450
00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:04,900
the, you know, in the mode of
hey I need to go collect some

451
00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:09,100
samples and do a effectively so
that they're not, you know.

452
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:15,000
Biasing the sample.
Yeah, it can be a little tricky

453
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,700
because, you know, if you have
anything lined with Teflon, then

454
00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:22,100
you have P fasten your sample,
right?

455
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,700
Oh so good collection
procedures, good handling

456
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,100
procedures, making sure you
account for background.

457
00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:30,800
All those kinds of good
practices are really important

458
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:33,100
and coordinating with the lab to
first.

459
00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:36,700
I mean this is you know
collection was sampling. 101 is

460
00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:39,100
called a lab first, make sure
that you have the right kinds of

461
00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:41,900
sample means And follow their
procedures correctly.

462
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:46,100
Yeah.
Well as we talk about these

463
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:49,200
types of pfos and there's all
kinds of them but you know one

464
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,300
of the big issues that's kind of
come up.

465
00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:55,600
That was like Hey firefighting
Foams a triple f is that the big

466
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,800
is the big culprit?
You know, least that was one of

467
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,400
the, you know?
I mean, it's not the only one

468
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,300
but it's a big one, right?
How much is it?

469
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:03,800
How much of this stuff is out
there?

470
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,100
Still that contains these P.
Faucets chemicals.

471
00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:11,500
And are there any good?
Natives to help, you know, fight

472
00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:14,900
fires with different types of
chemicals that are you know, as

473
00:26:14,900 --> 00:26:20,900
effective.
There, there are, there are some

474
00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:23,100
some good pretty good
Alternatives and they're being

475
00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:26,100
developed still.
But you know, this isn't

476
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:28,500
necessarily something new this
back.

477
00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:32,400
In the little go, a little
little history, some because

478
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:34,800
just to demonstrate that, this
is not something that we're

479
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:41,600
facing brand-new back in the 60s
to the 80s, firefighters train

480
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,300
with the real, a triple F, but
then they found that, you know,

481
00:26:44,308 --> 00:26:46,600
there was still it because it's
such a good foaming agent

482
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,000
attended.
Stay and hang around, secretly

483
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,500
do weight more the more than one
training event a day.

484
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,700
So I had to find something else
they could get was more training

485
00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:57,000
in and so they found that if
they had these fees remove the

486
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,000
flooring from the from the Foams
they could sell it, still

487
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,400
behaves pretty well.
But without that that foamy

488
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,200
action that had around very much
so that he was training films

489
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:09,400
and the training films have been
around since 1985.

490
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,900
So now you have these floor and
free phones that have been

491
00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:18,700
around for some time, That are
sitting on the background

492
00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:21,900
ducati's.
Italian motorcycles.

493
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,900
There you go.
So, so so these flooring free

494
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:29,400
films have been around for some
time.

495
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,800
And and industry has been
working.

496
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,100
Really hard to develop some,
pretty good Alternatives and and

497
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:35,600
they're out there, they're on
the market.

498
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,500
There's also some good
certification initiatives out

499
00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:44,900
there to to certify that,
whatever you're introducing

500
00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:46,300
you're placing back on the
market.

501
00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:49,900
Whether it's Something
completely free of fluorine or

502
00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:53,400
something else has is not
introducing, something else.

503
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,200
That's going to cause US
problems down the road, know,

504
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,900
and love, and at them
consequences.

505
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,900
So, so there's been lots of
development of work in this

506
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:03,000
area.
So I think, I think we're

507
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,000
industry is going to, to find a
way around this.

508
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:09,100
And so, some of the aviation
communities.

509
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:11,900
I know London Heathrow is
already switched over to a file,

510
00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:15,400
flowing, free foam.
So, there are there is a move

511
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,300
afoot.
I think some of Of the

512
00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:22,400
specifications are written for
the Federal Aviation FAA, as

513
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,500
well as the military
specifications require

514
00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:28,300
fluorinated surfactants in
there.

515
00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:31,300
And so that's some of the
challenging challenges with

516
00:28:31,300 --> 00:28:35,000
bureaucracy or are getting
around some of the, some of the

517
00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:37,600
rewording, some of that or
understanding that these

518
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,900
flooring free Foams are just as
effective.

519
00:28:39,900 --> 00:28:41,800
And there's test data to show
that.

520
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,400
And so summon, European
Community are a little ahead of

521
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,700
us in that regard.
And then, Also more kudos to the

522
00:28:49,700 --> 00:28:53,500
Department of Defense, their
standardization, or their

523
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,700
specification, might be
outdated, but they're putting a

524
00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:58,600
lot of effort in through sirte
Pandey.

525
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,400
Stcp these major research
funding mechanisms of the

526
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,200
Department of Defense into
development of these flooring

527
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,800
free phones and they've got
multiple initiatives underway

528
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,500
that are producing data to get
after a fluorine free phone.

529
00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:14,900
Yeah.
And so I also added in a

530
00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:18,700
whatever an organization chooses
to use and how they choose to

531
00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:20,100
go.
This, it really is be made by.

532
00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:23,900
I'm also, the multidisciplinary
team needs to weigh on this on

533
00:29:23,900 --> 00:29:26,800
this issue because environmental
regulations are moving faster

534
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,100
than the fire code and and what
is, so you need to have the

535
00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:32,000
environmental engineers and
those that understand those

536
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,000
regulations and how that
develops along with, the those

537
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,700
that actually understand the
delivery mechanisms of these

538
00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:40,900
Foams because the formulation is
going to change, how it's

539
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:44,000
delivered.
They all have to work together.

540
00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:46,100
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.

541
00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:49,500
That makes sense.
So, you know, many of these

542
00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:52,900
chemical companies are
discontinuing continuing the

543
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:57,600
production of the see, a pfos
chemicals to some shorter carbon

544
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,300
chain.
For C-4 carbon chemical.

545
00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:05,300
I mean, so do we have enough
toxicological information that,

546
00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:09,500
you know, c4p files chemicals
are, you know, safe or are they

547
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:11,100
as they're still concern out
there.

548
00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:13,500
Even even with Those types of
chemicals.

549
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,700
Go ahead.
David certainly concerned with

550
00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:25,100
those shorter, chained chemicals
and that's with lack of data

551
00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:26,900
that we have for the sea for
chemicals.

552
00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:30,400
And so you can also see that
they are more difficult to

553
00:30:30,408 --> 00:30:35,000
remove in particular from water,
from traditional sorban

554
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,000
Technologies.
So now they're more difficult to

555
00:30:37,008 --> 00:30:39,100
remove.
We don't have we have not a

556
00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:45,900
topological Suite of information
to look to reference back to and

557
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:50,700
they're more mobile.
And so Can get away further or

558
00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:54,000
larger plumes, more diffuse
plumes, there are taken up by

559
00:30:54,000 --> 00:31:00,700
plants to a greater extent and
then sometimes you can see that

560
00:31:00,700 --> 00:31:04,900
the properties maybe aren't as
desirable from the consumer

561
00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:07,000
product perspective.
And so they have to use more of

562
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,700
the C4 to get the same mechanism
or the same desired effect that

563
00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:13,400
they're looking for.
So now, you're putting twice as

564
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,700
much.
Just throwing out numbers of the

565
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:19,900
C-4 as you did with the C8.
So yeah, there are certainly

566
00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:23,000
issues with using the shorter
chain P fast?

567
00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:26,200
Yeah, yes.
So, some years ago, we thought

568
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,900
that that was a good alternative
to the C8 chemistry.

569
00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:33,300
That the shorter chains weren't
nearly as toxic or persistence

570
00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:36,400
in the environment, but we're
learning is something I

571
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:37,800
understand.
It continues to evolve.

572
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,600
We are learning more and more
about this and that there are

573
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:43,900
still issues with its, but for
different reasons as Dave

574
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:50,300
mentioned.
But you know, we so Our only the

575
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,300
fifo and pfos, which are the C8
compounds.

576
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:58,000
They learned has been listed as
persistent organic pollutants by

577
00:31:58,008 --> 00:32:01,500
the Stockholm convention.
So to date, there have there

578
00:32:01,500 --> 00:32:04,900
haven't been any other of the
short chain compounds listed as

579
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:13,200
yet.
I see I see today's podcast is

580
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,900
sponsored by Cascade
environmental.

581
00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:17,900
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582
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:20,500
Equipment to support you from
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583
00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:24,600
completion, even when it comes
to pfos contamination, their

584
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,500
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in the stringent protocols

585
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:30,300
required for p.
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586
00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:33,500
proprietary Waterloo app.
System can support the most

587
00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:36,800
complete delineation of pfos
contamination in soils and

588
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,500
groundwater.
And now their thermal team is

589
00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:43,100
preparing for their first field
demonstration of thermal pfos

590
00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:45,000
treatment.
If you'd like to learn more

591
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,500
about Cascades pfos delineation
and Remediation All these

592
00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:56,800
contact them at www.caucusnj.org
and v.com that's www.krsna.org

593
00:32:57,300 --> 00:33:03,800
nve.com.
It seems like pfos chemicals are

594
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,800
just about everyone and
everything we touch.

595
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,500
I mean can I know we touched a
little bit earlier Leanne about

596
00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:14,100
some of the products but let's
give the listeners a little more

597
00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:17,900
information about what kind of
products that they can.

598
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:21,000
Expect to see these things in
and then really like how bad

599
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,700
pervasive this is this
situation.

600
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:27,000
Really, you know, that we that
we find ourselves in Boy,

601
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:32,800
they're in all kinds of places,
ski wax textiles food packaging,

602
00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:38,800
of course, Teflon firefighting
foam cortex Scotchgard.

603
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,300
All those kinds of compounds
because because they have these

604
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:44,500
unique properties because their
water, repellent and grease

605
00:33:44,500 --> 00:33:47,800
repellent, they are very useful
for lots of different kinds of

606
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,100
products.
Therefore they've been used in

607
00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:53,900
lots of different ways they've
been and because they hang

608
00:33:53,900 --> 00:33:57,100
around forever you know they
don't It down and then barment

609
00:33:57,100 --> 00:34:00,900
naturally be going to find those
whales and all kinds of

610
00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:04,500
different parts of the world and
bury their most remote places of

611
00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:05,700
the world.
Think about the most remote

612
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:07,200
place in the world.
You probably find it there

613
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,199
because they migrate with with
air and with ocean, currents and

614
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:16,500
so forth.
Dave went away on that too.

615
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:18,800
Yeah.
Just the atmospheric deposition

616
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,800
that last part that you were
touching on their mean because

617
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,500
of the manufacturing of these
Goods then you find them across

618
00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:28,199
the planet.
'Not and not only in the

619
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:34,500
Antarctic but we also find them
in the nhanes study which is

620
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:37,600
looking at the different blood
serum samples and they're found

621
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:43,500
in about 97 to, you know, upper
90s of the populations Serum is

622
00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:47,400
we're walking around with some
concentration of these in our

623
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,500
bodies you know 100%
anthropogenic chemicals.

624
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:54,800
That's a that shouldn't be found
there and so they are there are

625
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,100
they are everywhere.
I mean I can just remember as a,

626
00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:02,700
you know, I don't know 20 years
ago or more but you know, you go

627
00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:05,400
out to the furniture store and
buy a nice couch and stuff and

628
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,500
they say how it's Scotchgard,
you know, Scotchgard your couch,

629
00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:11,300
you know, and protect it from.
Well, that's the stuff we're

630
00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:13,600
talking about.
I mean, that stuff still on our

631
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,500
furniture to in our couches and
in their chairs and are, you

632
00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:19,000
know, it's on our is the other
day, you know, I watched the

633
00:35:19,008 --> 00:35:22,700
movie Dark Waters and I go in
and I went back into the house

634
00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:26,600
and to the kitchen and cooked up
something on my pan and As one

635
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,200
of those thinking non-stick
pans, I'm like, what are we

636
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,600
doing to myself and kill him
myself?

637
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,800
Right?
I need to get to cast iron

638
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,100
skillets out.
Go, let's go.

639
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,500
Oh my gosh.
It's like this.

640
00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:45,500
Is it that too.
And that's now those those

641
00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:49,300
products for say pfoa-free, but
they're not really saying pfas

642
00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:52,500
free, right?
So they just substituted that ha

643
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,000
down to a 6 chain or for chain.
And so, they're using it or /

644
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,700
floral polyether compound.
And so that's the challenge as

645
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:03,300
well.
Is that the manufacturers of

646
00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:07,600
these chemicals know very well?
What can elicit the property?

647
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,500
They desire, but they can change
the chemistry quite easily.

648
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:14,600
And it takes so long for and
there are significant.

649
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,800
You use rules in place if you're
going to incorporate these into

650
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,400
society and consumer products.
So there are, you know, some

651
00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:28,600
regulations if you will.
But there the policy isn't that

652
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,700
tight and it takes a long time
to catch up.

653
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,900
What really is going on or they
can claim, you know, proprietary

654
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:40,300
information with what chemicals
that are losing for to be the

655
00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:43,100
new stock of the new stain
resistant material that they're

656
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:45,900
putting on our couches.
And it's, you know, it's not

657
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:51,000
it's not pfoa or pfos anymore
but it's something else and we

658
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,800
don't have the understanding of
it's something else.

659
00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:56,200
Yeah.
I mean there's been a big push

660
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:01,000
in the industry to eliminate it,
especially from food.

661
00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:04,700
Packaging.
You know, I think there's this

662
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:08,200
company called mind the store
and they're out there, they're

663
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:15,100
kind of like the activist type
arm of in this type of role

664
00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:17,600
where they're going to companies
and saying you guys have this

665
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,000
your products we want you to
take it off and stop using it,

666
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,800
you know.
And they're really calling out a

667
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,000
lot of companies who are using
these types of chemicals and and

668
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,500
making them, you know, come to
the come to the table and have a

669
00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:32,600
conversation and decide.
You know, change their process.

670
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,800
And I think they've been
successful at like getting

671
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,500
McDonald's and people like that
to start you stop using in their

672
00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:42,000
food wrappers that it's like
that's good, right?

673
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,800
Without a doubt.
And that's a part of the actions

674
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,300
that California is also
undertaking.

675
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:52,100
They're looking at looking at
these chemicals not perspective,

676
00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:56,400
not just from the adverse health
effects that they can cause

677
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:58,500
immediately, but they did a life
cycle.

678
00:37:58,500 --> 00:38:01,400
Like, where do these chemicals
going to end up at the The end

679
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,100
where's carpet going to
eventually go and how's that

680
00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:05,600
land?
Fully cake going to be handled

681
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,300
and things of that nature.
So they're looking at that

682
00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:13,000
whole, the whole life cycle
perspective, as well as in

683
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,100
Denmark, is Progressive as well.
And they're moving towards our.

684
00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:20,800
They already have eliminated pee
fast from their food, contact

685
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,500
materials, or food contact
surfaces.

686
00:38:22,500 --> 00:38:26,400
So yeah, it's got and just
slowly.

687
00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:28,600
Yeah.
Yeah, examine, that's good.

688
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:34,100
I mean well, So do you think the
EPA is going to establish that

689
00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:36,800
drinking water standard, you
know, within the next year, or

690
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,100
so?
Or what, how long do you think

691
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:41,700
this is going to take for them
to really settle on, you know,

692
00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:43,000
70 parts per trillion or
whatever?

693
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,800
It's going to be, it takes, it's
going to be a while.

694
00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:51,500
So here's the timeline.
So just this year, they publish

695
00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:54,600
the final regulatory,
determination for pifo and P

696
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,200
Foss.
Just the two of them.

697
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,800
And then with the development
process works and the EPA has

698
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,500
two To propose the regulations
that would be 20 23 and then 18

699
00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:09,600
months after that to finalize a
regulation that would be 20 25.

700
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,700
Then the states have three years
to adopt that Federal standards

701
00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:17,600
would be 2028 So, in the
meantime, we're still on this

702
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,000
path where, you know, the states
are likely continue to move

703
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,400
forward with their own
standards, right?

704
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,400
So toward the end of the decade,
really?

705
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:28,600
Yes.
And I guess it could be

706
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,900
expedited but the Anne's, right?
I mean even if it is, expeditor,

707
00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:35,300
what are we five years out?
That's the fast track.

708
00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:38,600
If you know, Congress and
everybody wants to get behind

709
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,900
this and cooperate and How
likely is that in the

710
00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:45,100
environment were in today.
So it's certainly going It's

711
00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:49,600
just a slow process and and
there's reasons why it's slow,

712
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,300
but at the end of the day, you
would think that you could get

713
00:39:52,300 --> 00:39:57,000
after numbers sooner rather than
later, unfortunately.

714
00:39:58,300 --> 00:40:03,400
Well, okay.
So There's been a lot of

715
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,000
interesting you know
developments going on related to

716
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,400
pfos and these potential
regulations.

717
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:17,400
But what's your take on the
impact of designating pfos as a

718
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,300
hazardous, waste or hazardous
material?

719
00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:25,100
I mean, I think there's a lot of
Ramifications in that space if

720
00:40:25,100 --> 00:40:26,900
they the EPA comes out with
that.

721
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,500
Yeah, so we talked about the the
implications with cercla and

722
00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:35,000
their Ozzy listed under the T
Ri.

723
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:39,600
So at a minimum, there's are
going to certainly increase

724
00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:43,900
attention to this issue.
But also, you know, the how they

725
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:47,200
tracked, how are they, how do
they monitored, how how much is

726
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,300
being produced to and that kind
of thing?

727
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:56,500
I mean, if this became a
hazardous waste, You know, just

728
00:40:56,500 --> 00:41:00,200
the cost of the industry would
Skyrocket the way everybody

729
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,800
manages, this type of material
would be, you know, it would

730
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,700
change.
In addition, the fact that, you

731
00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:09,800
know, like, if under Circle,
it's a toxic inventory, or it's

732
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,200
a toxic chemical, I mean, now,
you know, it's being, it's being

733
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,300
required to be assessed through,
you know, a phase 1 process.

734
00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:18,000
You're going to identify, you're
going to find it.

735
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,300
Now, you got it.
Now, what I do with it and now

736
00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:22,900
it's a regulated way.
So now I've got a manager like a

737
00:41:22,908 --> 00:41:25,900
hazardous waste.
Now I have to, you know, I have

738
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:28,600
all kinds of regulations and
compliance to deal with.

739
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,000
I mean, in The Snowball Effect
of that is just huge.

740
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,900
And in addition, the fact, I
don't think we have enough

741
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,100
hazardous waste landfills in the
country to take it off.

742
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:42,800
Yeah.
And keep in mind for

743
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:48,400
incinerators, right, right.
But because it's so pervasive

744
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,400
and in the how we live, you
know, and everything that we

745
00:41:51,500 --> 00:41:56,600
touch and that is going to have
be a balanced approach.

746
00:41:56,900 --> 00:41:59,800
We can't just turn on the switch
one day and say, okay?

747
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,200
Yea, verily, it is all hazardous
waste and any molecule of it has

748
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,100
to you can't do that.
It has to be some sort of

749
00:42:06,107 --> 00:42:07,700
threshold where you decided to
pay this much.

750
00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:11,300
And now it's hazardous and some
sort of a reason balanced

751
00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:14,900
approach to this issue.
Yeah, I know.

752
00:42:14,900 --> 00:42:19,500
I agreed.
ABI thoughts are just echoing.

753
00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:22,300
What Leanne said, risk-based
corrective action and so you

754
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:25,700
have to manage it even if it is
designated and you can get some

755
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:28,800
more funding, put towards it
from a federal capacity, but you

756
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,600
have to characterize what that
risk is and is it migrating?

757
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,300
And and is it affecting, you
know, the aquifer or is it just

758
00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:40,400
kind of it in place and, you
know, we can focus on other

759
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,600
things because there's not
enough money to go around with

760
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,300
interest.
Sure with compliance with Safe,

761
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:48,600
Drinking Water, Act standards
that we have today.

762
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:54,600
If you know well you know, I K.
So the EPA recently came out

763
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,400
with the their disposal
guidelines, you know kind of

764
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,600
basically a state of assessment
of like what are the best

765
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,300
disposal Technologies out there
for pfos and essentially you

766
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:08,900
know, the known suspects were
there, you know, landfill

767
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,800
incineration and deep, well
injection, but you know that,

768
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,200
The I thought that the, the
guidance that they put out was

769
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:22,200
really weak on, you know,
advising generators of what to

770
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,200
actually be concerned about as
far as do you have it in your

771
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,300
property?
Do you know what are the you

772
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:31,100
know ramifications of that?
How do you how should you

773
00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:34,800
evaluate this in your process?
I mean there are some additional

774
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,000
things that are involved in just
because you send stuff to

775
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,100
landfills doesn't mean you know,
landfills actually wanted

776
00:43:41,100 --> 00:43:43,900
either, right?
We've seen that a lot of lame.

777
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,800
Companies are starting to push
back that if they, it's up, even

778
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,800
if it's because it's
non-regulated.

779
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,100
They, you know, you can send to
not has landfill, but people

780
00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:54,300
don't want it.
People are concerned now.

781
00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:56,300
Operators are concerned that
it's going to show up in their

782
00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:58,400
leachate.
Now they got to process that and

783
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,800
pay more for incineration and
disposal of that own their own

784
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,000
leachate.
And what do you think that's

785
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,900
going to look like?
I mean, how are companies going

786
00:44:07,900 --> 00:44:10,700
to deal with that?
I will say about that.

787
00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:15,200
Guidance document I did like the
candor that they provided saying

788
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,300
that we don't have all the
answers to some of the research

789
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:20,700
that we're going forward and
trying to find some of these.

790
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:23,000
You know, I read it.
Hoping that there would be this

791
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,800
recipe in there in the secret
sauce and obviously there wasn't

792
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:41,400
but they kind of came forward
and said that yeah out there and

793
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,100
so they did it but it wasn't
really Like yeah we all know

794
00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:49,400
this we got our homework done
here it is.

795
00:44:50,500 --> 00:44:55,700
Yeah but yeah with regards to
the landfill some of those zero

796
00:44:55,700 --> 00:44:58,200
discharge the the landfills and
operate.

797
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:03,000
Arid climates is seems like a
possible solution and just the

798
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,000
effectiveness of landfill
leachate treatment applications

799
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,400
and I know those are out there
and are in need of servicing,

800
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,400
but they're very challenging,
right?

801
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:13,800
And so there's no, it's a mixed
way.

802
00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:20,300
A stream its high Organics.
It's not it's not consistent and

803
00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:23,500
so you can have a challenge
treating them but the

804
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:27,200
Technologies are there to treat
them as just the cost to do.

805
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,700
That is, is high.
Okay?

806
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,100
Well, so how big an issue, do
you think, you know, this pfos

807
00:45:33,100 --> 00:45:36,000
contaminated leech, a landfill
leachate.

808
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,000
How about the Wastewater bio
solids that are possibly being

809
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,000
land applied, and a potential
air emissions coming from

810
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,000
incineration.
You know, going how much is that

811
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:51,500
gonna cost you know?
Us in the future to deal with

812
00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:54,000
those types of disposal
concerns.

813
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,700
Yeah, it seems I'll just say and
then I'll turn over to the end,

814
00:45:57,700 --> 00:46:02,300
but it seems the greatest amount
of Focus right now is on a

815
00:46:02,308 --> 00:46:06,800
drinking water and try after, he
ate affected aquifers, and

816
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,400
things of this nature.
But all of them, the landfill

817
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,500
leachate as well as the
biosolids.

818
00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:15,000
And they're finding the, you
know, obviously they're not

819
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,900
there pervasive, in the
environment, we discharge them,

820
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:22,300
there are Industrial Charges to
the wastewater treatment plants.

821
00:46:22,300 --> 00:46:26,100
They're not effectively removed,
so of course they had in the

822
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:30,800
solids and how is that handled?
And so you're seeing tightening

823
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:36,800
regulations there and then the
incineration we don't have

824
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:42,400
adequate sampling or analytical
methodologies to get after the

825
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,800
the correct answer but some of
the incineration technology

826
00:46:47,300 --> 00:46:51,000
looks like it's but you want to
ensure One more than looks at.

827
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,100
So you've got challenges along
the incineration front, along

828
00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:57,900
the biosolids application and
how that's going to be handled

829
00:46:57,900 --> 00:47:02,100
Europe is starting to prevent
the application of Allah solids

830
00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:05,600
to foodstuffs and having tighter
regulations on that.

831
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,400
And I expect that's the way
we're going to go as well.

832
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,400
Right.
Yeah, it is complicated issue

833
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,400
because, you know, you so for so
long, Atlanta application of,

834
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,800
you know, reuse of biosolids has
been a great solution to has

835
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,600
phosphorus and all kinds of
things that we need.

836
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,300
And and so, hey, that's a great
fertilizer and source of

837
00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:28,600
nutrients.
But now you also have other

838
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,200
Organics.
You didn't realize.

839
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:31,500
This is so they were there
though.

840
00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:33,000
Yeah.
Yeah.

841
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,000
So but again it's, you know,
what's the risk.

842
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:41,300
How and, and for You know, that
that kind of analysis is still

843
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:45,300
very young because we don't have
the animal methods for all these

844
00:47:45,300 --> 00:47:49,900
different complicated matrices.
And we don't even know how much

845
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:52,200
is safe.
Yeah, you know, stays can't

846
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,400
agree on it.
So yeah.

847
00:47:54,400 --> 00:48:00,100
So it's eventually we may get
there but we're not quite there

848
00:48:00,100 --> 00:48:06,800
yet.
Did you know e-tank is the only

849
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,800
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850
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,600
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851
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852
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853
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854
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855
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856
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857
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859
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860
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861
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862
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863
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864
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It's just that easy.
But we talk about health effects

865
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:02,000
because that's really the
underlying driver of all of this

866
00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:05,100
concern about pfos in the
environment is the health

867
00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:09,300
effects.
And you know, what's been

868
00:49:09,300 --> 00:49:12,600
actually linked to pfos exposure
as far as these types of help

869
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,400
health effects.
Like you know, how did the

870
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,900
Parkersburg West Virginia human
Amy?

871
00:49:18,100 --> 00:49:21,800
Epidemiology study changed
perception of pfos exposure.

872
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,100
Right.
The skate study that was done

873
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,900
with an epidemiological study,
and it was a strong study, and

874
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:34,200
that it had, or enroll 69,000
personnel.

875
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,200
And so, they made probable
links, statistically, probable,

876
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,000
links to six adverse health
effects associated with pfoa

877
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,900
exposure, but bridging back to
what LeAndre said, what are the

878
00:49:46,900 --> 00:49:49,400
levels?
And so, we know that that

879
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:54,600
population was supposed to a
higher level, Due to the point

880
00:49:54,600 --> 00:50:00,000
source emissions from that area.
But kidney cancer, testicular,

881
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:05,300
cancer, ulcerative colitis,
thyroid disease, elevated,

882
00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:09,700
cholesterol, and mention.
So those are the six that they

883
00:50:09,700 --> 00:50:12,600
make 'lt2.
I know that the European Union

884
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,400
and their drinking water
directive that they just

885
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,400
released in January.
Of this year, they're basing The

886
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:22,100
Point of Departure on the
reduced vaccine.

887
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,000
Efficacy.
So the vaccines that they're

888
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,700
providing or not.
Not proven to be as effective

889
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:31,700
and they saw that as the as
link, its and that's what

890
00:50:31,700 --> 00:50:35,700
they're basing.
Their drinking water to right of

891
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,600
regulations that they're putting
forth here in the next couple of

892
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,200
years.
So it seems like we have a lot

893
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:47,500
more study to do on the exposure
linkages between concentration

894
00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:51,300
and a fax to you know, human
health.

895
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,000
I mean, it just, you know, when
you go parts per trillion, mean,

896
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,300
you know, normal standard of
remediation approaches, we've

897
00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:04,100
been, you know, hey we're
getting the vocs down the parts

898
00:51:04,100 --> 00:51:07,900
per million or parts per billion
and now we're parts per

899
00:51:07,900 --> 00:51:09,600
trillion.
I mean, it's like, then this

900
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,900
stuff must be really, really
toxic.

901
00:51:11,900 --> 00:51:15,400
If we're getting down to this
level of concern, and I think

902
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:20,000
what's not getting communicated
to the public is, is the real

903
00:51:20,900 --> 00:51:23,700
concern?
Like what is the The exposure.

904
00:51:23,700 --> 00:51:28,000
I mean is parts per trillion.
Is it that we need to be going

905
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,400
that low is it is why isn't
parts per million, okay?

906
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,800
I mean I don't know these
questions, I'm trying to ask the

907
00:51:33,808 --> 00:51:35,100
question.
I'm just trying to figure this

908
00:51:35,100 --> 00:51:39,800
out but I think the conversation
isn't pointed to this point of

909
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,500
the converse of the discussion
where we're saying, look this is

910
00:51:43,500 --> 00:51:47,100
really really bad.
The the cases are mounting

911
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,900
people are dying.
You know the exposure levels

912
00:51:50,900 --> 00:51:52,800
are, you know, you only need a
miniscule.

913
00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:57,000
Amount to have you no cancers or
something show up and it's

914
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,500
directly linked and the more we
get that it out there the better

915
00:52:00,500 --> 00:52:03,800
but it just I think a lot of
people are going.

916
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,600
Why are we going this slow?
Are there any questions?

917
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,500
Yeah, I and I don't know that I
have that.

918
00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:12,500
We have a good answer for that.
I mean the city, a lot of

919
00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:17,100
attention people there.
So there's a lot of there's a

920
00:52:17,107 --> 00:52:22,300
lot of very emotionally charged
arguments about this particular

921
00:52:22,300 --> 00:52:25,800
issue.
And the science is developing,

922
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,300
for sure is there's lots of
research coming out every day,

923
00:52:28,300 --> 00:52:34,900
but we do not enough to say that
it's not such so clear that we

924
00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:39,100
can make really Good decision
side just yet and basically on

925
00:52:39,100 --> 00:52:43,800
risk, you know, because you know
we know it be the living with

926
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:49,700
this our whole lives.
Right there was still alive.

927
00:52:49,700 --> 00:52:53,000
Most of us are so high.
Yeah, it's like, so, do we

928
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,000
really need to do this lowers?
That's just what.

929
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,900
I'm, I'm just kind of curious.
I'm not saying there's not a

930
00:52:58,900 --> 00:53:02,300
risk.
I 100% believe there's risk,

931
00:53:03,300 --> 00:53:07,500
what level is real, that we We
are considering is that is

932
00:53:07,500 --> 00:53:10,500
acceptable, right?
And I think I just add to that

933
00:53:10,500 --> 00:53:15,700
the, the difficulty in tracing.
These chronic diseases all the

934
00:53:15,700 --> 00:53:19,500
way back to that pifo or that
piece bass exposure.

935
00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:23,100
That one had very low
concentrations but they are

936
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:25,200
persistent and they are
bioaccumulative.

937
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:29,100
And so then we carry them in our
body for so long that at that

938
00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:33,900
maybe the lending itself to the
toxicity to do is that we have

939
00:53:33,900 --> 00:53:37,600
the body burden that we can't.
Breath nearly as fast enough

940
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:43,300
crying.
Well, are there some promising

941
00:53:43,300 --> 00:53:49,100
treatment technologies that can
really, you know, remediate this

942
00:53:49,100 --> 00:53:51,900
material as well?
You know, and destroy it more

943
00:53:51,900 --> 00:53:54,500
effectively than say just
incineration.

944
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,600
Because incineration seems to be
the only way to really destroy

945
00:53:58,600 --> 00:53:59,700
these.
These chemicals.

946
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,300
Is there any silver bullets out
there?

947
00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:06,400
Or we really like doing a two or
three step process SS just to

948
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,100
kind of, you know, eliminate it.
But we're not really destroy it.

949
00:54:10,100 --> 00:54:13,200
We just container izing it and
putting another, another

950
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:17,100
disposal prep package, no silver
bullets.

951
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:21,900
Here's where I get to use my
favorite or one of my favorite

952
00:54:21,900 --> 00:54:27,900
quotes, but is it's a store in
Copper vessels exposed to

953
00:54:27,908 --> 00:54:30,500
sunlight and filter through
charcoal and that was written

954
00:54:30,500 --> 00:54:33,900
2000, BC, and some Sanskrit
texts and so it's activated

955
00:54:33,900 --> 00:54:36,600
carbon.
It's not the new Game in town,

956
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,900
we've been using this stuff for
a long time, but I am exchange

957
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:43,900
resins are very valuable as well
and very useful.

958
00:54:44,300 --> 00:54:49,500
Some of them are general which
has its advantages membrane

959
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,000
technology.
So you're kind of looking at

960
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:56,200
your, your remediation
Technologies in a grouping of

961
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,400
adsorption Technologies.
Separation Technologies, like

962
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,300
the membranes reverse osmosis
and Nano.

963
00:55:02,300 --> 00:55:07,300
Filtration in particular foam
fractionation, Has also been

964
00:55:07,300 --> 00:55:11,000
found to be effective but now
you're, you know, you still have

965
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,300
the repent 8 to figure out and
what are you going to do with

966
00:55:13,300 --> 00:55:16,300
that 10%?
That's highly concentrated pee

967
00:55:16,300 --> 00:55:20,200
fast waste that you're left with
and there are the destructive

968
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:25,900
technologies that you you
mentioned or and so plasma

969
00:55:25,900 --> 00:55:30,500
Technologies the incineration
Sanaa lacist but we start

970
00:55:30,500 --> 00:55:36,300
talking about those you know
we're really Challenge with

971
00:55:36,300 --> 00:55:39,900
regards to scale and challenge
with regards to energy

972
00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:44,000
consumption which results in
higher costs, lower flow rates,

973
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,000
things of this nature.
So those aren't necessarily

974
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,400
mature enough today.
But as you alluded to, it's this

975
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,600
combination of Technologies,
where maybe you separate it with

976
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,400
your membranes or, you know,
even your Ion exchange resin and

977
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,800
you have the regenerative
capacity and I deal with the

978
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,200
still bottoms for their General
capacity.

979
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,400
What are you going to do?
With that the phone

980
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:08,800
fractionation.
What you going to do with that?

981
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,000
Well, now you can put that
through the destructive

982
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,100
technologies that at a lower
flow rate because you're only

983
00:56:14,100 --> 00:56:16,600
dealing with the tenth of the
volume that you were dealing

984
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:20,400
with still a challenge for sure.
But that, that might be the, the

985
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:24,700
solution is to combine a couple
of these different Technologies.

986
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:26,400
Yeah.
Right.

987
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:27,900
Right.
Yeah.

988
00:56:27,900 --> 00:56:30,800
Yeah.
The the treatment train using

989
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:35,100
multiple approaches is seems to
have a lot of Promise also.

990
00:56:35,300 --> 00:56:38,700
So keeping in mind too that most
of this technology is designed

991
00:56:38,700 --> 00:56:41,600
for drinking water.
Pretty clean water to begin

992
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:43,800
with.
So, when you start talking about

993
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:47,400
other kinds of matrices, like
soil or sludge, or those kinds

994
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:51,400
of things, and it's it's that's
a different game altogether.

995
00:56:52,500 --> 00:56:55,700
Also, you know, like any of
these remediation projects is

996
00:56:55,700 --> 00:57:00,100
very situation-specific.
Those need to be chosen for the

997
00:57:00,100 --> 00:57:02,300
kind of concentration that
you're starting with what kind

998
00:57:02,300 --> 00:57:05,100
of treatment Grohl goals.
You need to come up with what

999
00:57:05,300 --> 00:57:08,500
What are going to be used for
all those questions so it's

1000
00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:11,300
there's lots of different
options but for good reason we

1001
00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:16,200
need to have the different
options available to us and to

1002
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,300
plug two of those chapters in
the book one talks about all

1003
00:57:19,300 --> 00:57:22,800
those nuances that you want to
consider when your treatment

1004
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:27,300
technology but the other is
talking about the the value of

1005
00:57:27,300 --> 00:57:29,600
modeling.
And so you can't always get

1006
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:31,900
after running pilot and they're
expensive.

1007
00:57:31,900 --> 00:57:35,300
Been doing lots of time and
man-hours but there are some A

1008
00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:38,800
label modeling tools out there
free of charge by the EPA.

1009
00:57:39,700 --> 00:57:42,600
And so there's another chapter
in the book that talks about the

1010
00:57:43,300 --> 00:57:44,700
importance of that
consideration.

1011
00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:49,700
Well, I guess I did, I wanted to
kind of double back on the

1012
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:56,000
epidemiology type study stuff
Lee and maybe you know, but are

1013
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,500
there actively a lot of studies
right now.

1014
00:57:58,500 --> 00:58:02,100
Doing this, you know, pfos
exposure, assessments just to

1015
00:58:02,100 --> 00:58:04,800
start really kind of Connecting
the Dots here.

1016
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:11,200
So we Have a more definitive,
you know, understanding of what

1017
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,900
true exposure is.
I'm assuming there are I just

1018
00:58:13,900 --> 00:58:19,700
haven't heard any and I am not
an epidemiologist but but I have

1019
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,500
seen some in the literature I
don't know that there are some

1020
00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:26,000
on the kind of scale that C8
project was.

1021
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,800
I don't know that that kind of
scale, a lot of it is

1022
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,400
retrospective studies, and of
course, as nhanes.

1023
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,100
But I just don't have a good
answer for that.

1024
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:40,000
One they've you know, aside from
nhanes in the continuing to

1025
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,500
continue to Monitor and you can
see with some of the legislation

1026
00:58:43,500 --> 00:58:47,500
put forth that the p phone, pfos
numbers are going down in the

1027
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:51,400
populace has four levels
compared to where they were you

1028
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,400
know, the measures we have
taken, are effective in reducing

1029
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,200
the body burden.
That's good.

1030
00:58:58,300 --> 00:59:02,600
That's good.
Well, when we, you know, who's

1031
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:06,200
leading the pfos discussion
globally, Or and or, you know,

1032
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,100
who's leading it you know, at a
state level here in the u.s.

1033
00:59:09,100 --> 00:59:12,600
who's who's the big, you know, I
kind of mentioned a little bit

1034
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:13,900
earlier, you know, kind of East
Coast.

1035
00:59:13,900 --> 00:59:17,800
West Coast is kind of but you
know, who are these players and

1036
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,700
who's mostly the most aggressive
at pushing this out?

1037
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,700
Yeah.
There's been a lot of work being

1038
00:59:24,700 --> 00:59:29,100
done in Europe, for sure.
They have, for example, there

1039
00:59:29,100 --> 00:59:31,300
has been several organizations
that have taken measures to

1040
00:59:31,300 --> 00:59:35,100
limit the some degree P fast
exposures in.

1041
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:38,000
Thousand, eight the European
Food, Safety Authority

1042
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,200
establishes, tolerable daily
intake values for fo and pfos,

1043
00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:45,000
and then they reversed be
reduced even further and 2018,

1044
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:47,400
and then both fifo and be
possible.

1045
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:48,800
If it is.
Again, we mentioned this

1046
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,500
earlier, persistent organic
pollutants by the Stockholm

1047
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:55,100
convention, and then the
European Union has limited P

1048
00:59:55,100 --> 00:59:58,700
Foss, concentrations, and
textiles, and coating materials.

1049
00:59:59,900 --> 01:00:02,100
And the u.s. we talked that
about that quite a bit to, you

1050
01:00:02,107 --> 01:00:06,500
know, we have the 2020 ndaa.
Sitting and moving the, the

1051
01:00:06,500 --> 01:00:13,100
federal regulations and federal
actions to take place a little

1052
01:00:13,100 --> 01:00:16,000
bit more accelerated Pace than
they have been in the past.

1053
01:00:16,500 --> 01:00:20,400
But then absence of that the
states are kind of on their own

1054
01:00:20,700 --> 01:00:24,200
looking to the federal level for
guidance and something

1055
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,400
eventually to come up, but but
people aren't seats aren't

1056
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,500
waiting.
Yeah.

1057
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,500
Well, you know if the listeners
who were on the the listening to

1058
01:00:37,500 --> 01:00:39,700
this, how do they get a hold of
your book?

1059
01:00:40,100 --> 01:00:42,200
What's the best way to get a
hold of the book?

1060
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,400
Like to, you know, give you some
opportunity to kind of promote

1061
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,000
your book a little more on the
show here today.

1062
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,400
So yeah chocolate about how to
do that.

1063
01:00:51,100 --> 01:00:55,600
It's available on any major, an
online Bookseller.

1064
01:00:56,100 --> 01:00:59,300
Amazon has it for sure.
But also the Publishers Taylor &

1065
01:00:59,300 --> 01:01:03,200
Francis, And Taylor & Francis,
you can buy it from them.

1066
01:01:03,700 --> 01:01:09,800
They also provide a discount
code and that is FL are 40 and I

1067
01:01:09,808 --> 01:01:13,400
don't know how much to cut
discount is for but as you know,

1068
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:19,900
it's a more than 0, so F LR 40
for the discount code.

1069
01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:21,400
Okay.
All right.

1070
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:22,400
Good.
Good.

1071
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:27,900
Well, hey, the best of luck to
you guys on the the book and I'm

1072
01:01:27,900 --> 01:01:31,500
sure that we'll be seeing seen
you guys around the, the

1073
01:01:31,500 --> 01:01:34,400
circuits, probably doing some
presentations, a couple of

1074
01:01:34,408 --> 01:01:36,800
conferences, down the road here
when, and promoting the book.

1075
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:40,600
And, and the topic, there's
there's a lot of really good

1076
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,900
content in there.
Like I said, I really liked how

1077
01:01:42,900 --> 01:01:46,300
the book broke down, you know,
the chapters into, you know,

1078
01:01:46,300 --> 01:01:51,900
really focus type bite-sized
digestible sections to really

1079
01:01:51,900 --> 01:01:57,600
kind of break down the various
concerns around the pfos topics.

1080
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:04,600
And I mean, from, E2 testing to,
you know, remediation to, you

1081
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:06,100
know, I mean, there's just so
much there.

1082
01:02:06,100 --> 01:02:08,900
Yep.
You know, risk, so kudos to you

1083
01:02:08,900 --> 01:02:11,500
guys pull in this together and
all your contributors because

1084
01:02:11,500 --> 01:02:14,100
this is the type of information
that is hard to sometimes.

1085
01:02:14,100 --> 01:02:16,000
Get your hands on.
I mean like the literature's out

1086
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:17,500
there but you really got to dig
a lot.

1087
01:02:17,500 --> 01:02:20,000
I mean, it's best to just like
get a hold of a book.

1088
01:02:20,100 --> 01:02:22,200
That's got to kind of pull
together for you.

1089
01:02:22,500 --> 01:02:25,100
That's all current.
That's why I liked about this

1090
01:02:25,100 --> 01:02:28,200
book.
Well, thanks so much.

1091
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,600
John has been a pleasure.
Thanks for having us and

1092
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:34,000
inviting us to share about this,
our thoughts on this topic and

1093
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:35,900
some of the latest developments
in the.

1094
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,000
And again thanks to contributors
for recruiting sites, Donnie's

1095
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:43,300
chapters absolute on and thank
you for the podcast.

1096
01:02:43,300 --> 01:02:45,500
It's a great podcast.
You're putting forward here and

1097
01:02:45,500 --> 01:02:48,800
I appreciate your effort and
thank you for the invite.

1098
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,500
Look forward to the to the next
time we interact.

1099
01:02:51,900 --> 01:02:54,200
Yeah, absolutely.
Now keep share it, share the

1100
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:57,100
news, share the podcast, with
your friends, and your network.

1101
01:02:57,300 --> 01:02:59,500
Can we get it out there?
Probably get out there and about

1102
01:02:59,500 --> 01:03:01,500
a week here or sometime next
week about you.

1103
01:03:01,500 --> 01:03:09,900
So wonderful.
I want to thank our guests

1104
01:03:09,900 --> 01:03:13,400
Leanne raise and David Kemp
easty for coming out of the show

1105
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,400
today.
If you want to learn more about

1106
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:19,500
pfos, then get a copy of their
new book forever, chemicals, the

1107
01:03:19,500 --> 01:03:22,600
environmental, economic and
social Equity, concerns with

1108
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:26,600
pfos in the environment, you can
pick up a copy at most major

1109
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:27,700
online.
Stores.

1110
01:03:28,700 --> 01:03:31,900
If you want to connect with
Leann and David you can check

1111
01:03:31,900 --> 01:03:34,100
them out.
Via LinkedIn will also put a

1112
01:03:34,107 --> 01:03:37,700
link to their contact
information on my website to

1113
01:03:37,700 --> 01:03:40,400
listen to Future environmental
transformation podcast.

1114
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:44,100
You can check us out on Apple
podcast Spotify, Google podcast

1115
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:48,100
and other podcast, networks or
better yet from my website at

1116
01:03:48,100 --> 01:03:52,600
www.ge.com a great e.com.
You can also follow me on

1117
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:55,900
Instagram or the environmental
transformation podcast Facebook

1118
01:03:55,900 --> 01:03:58,200
page.
If You enjoyed the podcast

1119
01:03:58,200 --> 01:03:59,900
episode.
Don't forget to subscribe and

1120
01:03:59,900 --> 01:04:02,600
tell your friends.
I would love to also hear

1121
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,700
feedback from the ET Nation
about the episode and any future

1122
01:04:05,700 --> 01:04:07,700
podcast topics you'd like me to
cover.

1123
01:04:08,300 --> 01:04:11,500
Well, thanks for listening until
next time, make a positive

1124
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impact in someone's life today.

LeeAnn Racz

Author, Senior Engineer

LeeAnn Racz is a Senior Engineer at ToxStrategies, Inc. She has also been the President and Founder of ClearView Environmental Engineering and Consulting, LLC, providing environmental and occupational health services to clients around the world. Prior to this initiative, she served for 23 years as a bioenvironmental engineer and civil engineer in the US Air Force. Some highlights of Dr. Racz’s military assignments include squadron commander, chief of consultative services at the US Air Force School of Aerospace Medicine, director of the Graduate Environmental Engineering and Science Program at the Air Force Institute of Technology. Dr. Racz is a licensed professional engineer, certified industrial hygienist, and board-certified environmental engineer.

She earned a BS in environmental engineering from California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo, an MS in biological and agricultural engineering from the University of Idaho, and a PhD in civil and environmental engineering from the University of Utah. She has authored dozens of refereed journal articles, conference proceedings, magazine articles, and presentations, and edited six handbooks. Dr. Racz is a member of several professional organizations and honor societies and has received numerous prestigious teaching and research awards.

David Kempisty

Author / PhD / PE

Dave is a licensed engineer focusing on today’s pressing environmental issues. He is the founder of “Viridi Environmental”, a consulting firm providing insight into emerging contaminant solutions and waste-to-energy technologies. Dave has worked in the water treatment industry using conventional and novel technologies for the removal of contaminants like PFAS, 1,4 dioxane and carcinogenic volatile organics from industrial and municipal waters. Before this, he spent 22 years in the United States Air Force as an environmental engineer, occupational health consultant and assistant professor. As editor to two books on per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances and author to over 20 peer-reviewed papers and presentations on a variety of environmental topics, Dave provides a well-balanced perspective on today’s environmental issues. Dave earned his Ph.D. from the University of Colorado-Boulder in Civil and Environmental Engineering. He holds a Master of Science from the Air Force Institute of Technology and a Bachelor of Science from Michigan Technological University.

"Forever Chemicals" Environmental, Economic, and Social Equity Concerns with PFAS with Authors LeeAnn Racz and David Kempisty.

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